My first post and it's a doozy

[5thtimesthecharm]

Can't see a lot from the pictures but there is quite a bit

 

[Mikes5thAve]

I have no problem running the computer when they work right, I still have 2 cars with them and when I first did my 360 swap I moved the whole spark control computer setup over with it because that's all I had.
But you're dealing with a 35 year old car here thst sat for years and has already had butchery started on it. If you're going the non feedback carb route start with a rebuilt one and ditch the rest of the parts while you're at it. Get s vacuum distributor and electronic ignition kit and call it done.

There's nut much to go wrong with those distributors it's probably still some sort of carb problem or the computer doing something causing the jump in idle, if youve caught all the vacuum leaks. Not knowing the history of the car you might also have slack in the timing chain or the nylon falling off the gear which while it won't cause that much of a jump in idle won't be helping things either so that's one more thing to check.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

I have no problem running the computer when they work right, I still have 2 cars with them and when I first did my 360 swap I moved the whole spark control computer setup over with it because that's all I had.
But you're dealing with a 35 year old car here thst sat for years and has already had butchery started on it. If you're going the non feedback carb route start with a rebuilt one and ditch the rest of the parts while you're at it. Get s vacuum distributor and electronic ignition kit and call it done.

There's nut much to go wrong with those distributors it's probably still some sort of carb problem or the computer doing something causing the jump in idle, if youve caught all the vacuum leaks. Not knowing the history of the car you might also have slack in the timing chain or the nylon falling off the gear which while it won't cause that much of a jump in idle won't be helping things either so that's one more thing to check.

Well I'll see what I can pull tommorow and go from there.

I didn't replace the pickup coil, could that not have deteriorated over the years of sitting?
Agreed, it's old and besides the butchery I have no idea why it was parked to begin with.

I did a bunch of research on that, I thought they stopped using the nylon gears in 87, other than the "let's put these on randomly to get rid of our stock of them" ones

 

[AHBguru]

Sharp jumps in RPM typically point to a primary ignition problem, and you could go either of two ways:

1) A new stock distributor and reman computer

- or -

2) New $50 Chinese BBD carb and Mopar electronic ignition kit.

It really comes down to the condition of the car. '89 was the last year for these, and if it's in good shape or better, try to keep it stock. That will also be the least expensive route.

If the car needs body work and suspension work and brakes and a nice 360 Magnum some day... well, plan 2 is the best starting point. But if you want it to start and run reliably, with some kind of decent fuel economy until you do some motor work, leave the canister, EGR, and the rest hooked up. These aren't race cars, they're grandma cars. Enjoy it for what it is.

Two final thoughts:

One - black smoke of any kind is bad. If you (or someone else) were messing with the duty control solenoid on the carb, those are non-serviceable, so it's probably now junk, and running full rich. I'm not 100% certain those solenoids are still available for the 6280 (or BBD), so you may be up the river with that. How to check that? Well, you have to have a functioning computer. I suspect yours is shot, and that's probably all you really need, unless the timing chain/sprockets are junk, which takes us to:

Second, they did keep the silent timing gear sprockets on the 2bbl 318 through 1989. They very seldom lasted much beyond 100,000 miles. You can get a decent double-roller kit, with sprockets, pretty reasonably on RA, etc.

So, in summary, grab whatever looks good at the boneyard. Not everything will interchange from an '89 to something older, so be aware of that. Grab the computer, canister (with hoses and purge valve if they look ok), maybe the cruise servo if it looks OK, maybe even the carb if that look OK. Basically stuff that looks ok and would at least serve as spares if you don't need them right away.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Ahh it's sounding like electronic ignition might be my best bet. Just for testing purposes if nothing else. It will eliminate the computer and feedback carb as the probable causes.
I should mention I have a Haynes manual I have been following for most of my troubleshooting, mostly for the step by step procedures of it.

The car is not in perfect shape by any means, two holes in the trunk, bottom of doors are starting to show their age, bunch of small rust spots, paint chips and clear coat withered away. Not terrible but I wouldn't say great by any means.

As for the duty solenoid, is that the mixture solenoid inside the carb? If so yes, that was opened up and there are two "square" orings that were replaced, then solenoid was put back together. Matching size orings....I hope that isn't it because we were debating opening it or not at the time of the carb dunk. Just lucky we had matching rings.

No problem with the smoke just normal not black, normal exhaust fumes and stuff burning off. It happens every time I run the car for awhile because I've never been able to run it long enough for all the crap on the motor and around to burn off. And that hole in the cat, all the fumes from it make their way up to the engine bay. Once the car runs for a minute or two it clears up.

That said, that is unfortunate. Good to know though. I will definitely need to check timing then. I will do that as soon as I am able. Silly design for a timing sprocket, I get where they were coming from but I'd rather have a louder chain than a failed sprocket.

I really wish we could post videos, even short ones here. It might make all the difference in some cases.

Anyways I'll hopefully hit the yard tomorrow, I'll report back with what I get my grubby hands on

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Well I found a few things, Holley 2280, Carter carb assorted springs and screws/bolts, front linkage connectors, EGR block off plate because why not have it even if I don't use it, a few miscellaneous plastics and small parts I needed.
Also just for fun original Chrysler cassette lol

There was an original radio as well, but stupid 3-point security screws so I'll have to grab that another day.
Unfortunately charcoal canister and cruise servo were both already missing from both units, lots of other Mopar rides diplomats and trucks but I was not sure what was and wasn't interchangable so I left that stuff alone.

 

[AHBguru]

2280 is the non-feedback version of the 6280 you have in the car. Direct replacement. Put a kit in her, and that's half the battle. Transfer the idle control solenoid over from the 6280.

Problem is, excepting the carb, bucking/snorting/farting are symptoms of a bad computer. You can pretty much use any 2bbl 318 computer between '85 and '89 from the boneyard ('81-'84 for readers with older M-bodies). That would solve the other half of the two biggest problems.

But we're leaving out quite a bit. We don't know the condition of the distributor. Or the timing chain/sprockets. Or the harmonic balancer. All must be in known-good condition to just get it tuned up correctly.

Since the car isn't in perfect condition, if you decide to put the 2280 in place of the 6280 (I sure would, you can't run it the way it is now), then it's time to decide which way to go with ignition. If you decide to run it with the ESC system, then definitely get a reman computer, a new (not reman) distributor, and a new coil. The advantages to that are excellent spark and timing stability, the best timing curve available for that car, and reliability.

That said, if you do plan to add a few horses (by finding that good Magnum 360, not pissing away $$$ on a 318), then you can get a head start in that direction by converting it to the Mopar electronic ignition system. I'll drop a link below. Just so that everyone understands, you do not gain anything in power or fuel economy with that swap. Unless you're running a top-fuel dragster, there is no power in ignition.
Why? Simple. If the car was running poorly prior to the ignition swap, the best you will ever experience is a return to stock power, but lower fuel economy. You haven't changed anything with the engine itself that would add any power.

In your case, rebuild the 2280 and tune that up really nice. It's the only Holley product worth using on a Mopar (it's also a clone of the Carter BBD). Get the ignition kit I will link to below, and carefully install it.

Now the fun part. Most of the goodies you were trying to find will interchange between body styles and often with pickups, prior to 1989-90. The finicky stuff, such as carbs and computers will require closer approximations, as would factory radios. But things like switches, servos, radiators, etc will generally interchange. If you stay within body architecture (think F/M/J bodies), quite a bit will interchange. Make sure you separate the doo--dads that you find. When you go looking for some little clip or cap or switch, you'll be glad you did.

The best overall ignition kit today is probably the Mopar kit sold by Chuck Mancini Racing. They've been a Mopar Performance authorized store for decades, and they don't sell junk. The kit is pretty reasonable, so it's worth that investment.

Stay in touch, this was a fun stroll down Amnesia Lane for me!
.
Electronic Ignition Conversion Kit, Hi-Po ECU

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Oh yes your post reminded me, after I got back the friend I went up with said he wanted to stop by the value village (equivalent of a goodwill or any other thrift shop)
Lo and behold I found a timing light, looks like it's never been used, even still in it's original bubble wrap.

Also, I went ahead and ordered the mancini kit, being that I'm in Canada it may take awhile to show up.
I also start a new full-time job next week, so I'm not sure what kind of time I will have. But I will for sure be keeping in touch and letting you guys know as things progress

 

[Mikes5thAve]

You can get better performance with a normal vacuum distributor because you can tune them for the advance curb that works best for your engine but it won't be a drastic difference. When people say they for a huge performance boost getting rid of the computer it's because the computer or something in the system wasn't working right to begin with. In your case there are too many unknowns going on and you could spend a lot of time trying to track down what component is bad and still not have it running at its full potential at the end. I've never gotten better gas mileage with these cars then when the computer was working right.

Shop around for a new or rebuilt carb while you are at it, those old junk yard ones don't always work right if they've been sitting out in the weather for years and they've gotten corrosion inside. But rebuilt ones are hit and miss too and sometimes you have to send them back. Canadian Tire used to have good prices for them.

Cool on the timing light!

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Not really an update but...
So I went to a car show today, and got talking to an older gent, who had an old charger, I think he said 71 but I might be off.
Anyways I was gifted, yes gifted an Edelbrock 4barrel 1405.
The guy basically said " I don't need it anymore, it was rebuilt then used for 3-4 months. Then taken off and sat on the shelf since"
He says it works fine just not big enough for his application.
Yea my luck is just ridiculous, or maybe he just liked me haha

 

[Mikes5thAve]

Cool!
There's one here tomorrow I have to try to get to. Missed the first day of it.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

I hope you get to it!
I live in a small area so there really aren't a whole lot. That said it is an old school area, so what does show up is usually fantastic.
Unfortunately they asked no pictures unless you ask the owner, so I don't have any but just off the top of my head

a 39 train car from Newfoundland
A late model charger
A few Chevelle's and irocs
Not sure of the year but I'm gonna say 45 bel aire
54 Pontiac chieftain
Mid 90s Chevy S10 that honestly was the most beautiful truck I ever seen, it was just done up right ya know?
And as for our f/m/j stuff, not much. There was a diplomat in nice condition, motor was not done up or anything.
And an old ram charger, ram charger was nice really good condition actually.

I love seeing the history and how things have changed over the years. 90s kid but 70s kid at heart aha

 

[AHBguru]

Sell the 1405 and get on ebay, and buy a new 2bbl carb. The amount of horsing around (new intake, correct kickdown rods or cable, tuning, etc) that it will take to get an obsolete 4bbl to run on that thing won't be worth the time or money. Again, for what that would cost, you're talking used 360 Magnum money, and you wouldn't be anywhere near that kind of horsepower or torque with a 318.

Here's what you need, snap this thing up if you can:
.

Vintage Holley H2-2280 Carburetor R80218 Chrysler New Old Stock | eBay

 

[Mikes5thAve]

It doesn't cost that much to go 4bbl. Look around for a hood used intake (needs to get stock 80s one or performer if you want to keep air conditioning) a bit of modifying to the throttle bracket and the kickdown parts and you're set. Depending on what 360 you go with most if not all of the parts will work on it and what doesn't you won't have a problem selling.
Going 360 is the best way if you really want more power but your gas mileage will plummet especially in the city and its only a matter of time before that new found power takes out the transmission and weak 7 1/4 axle.

 

[AHBguru]

It doesn't cost that much to go 4bbl. Look around for a hood used intake (needs to get stock 80s one or performer if you want to keep air conditioning) a bit of modifying to the throttle bracket and the kickdown parts and you're set. Depending on what 360 you go with most if not all of the parts will work on it and what doesn't you won't have a problem selling.
Going 360 is the best way if you really want more power but your gas mileage will plummet especially in the city and its only a matter of time before that new found power takes out the transmission and weak 7 1/4 axle.

I always ran an A999 behind a 360, and never had a problem. But - that's with a new convertor, new ATF+4, and known good bands and clutch pack. If you drive it somewhat sensibly, and make 500% sure the kickdown rod is adjusted properly, it'll last a good long time.

The 360 is perfectly happy with the tall 2.26 final drive, but most '89 cars had a 8.25 rear end. He might be lucky that way.

The 360 was never terribly fuel efficient, but using an Edelbrock carb certainly wouldn't help. A known good non-feedback 938X TQ or 17085408/543232 QJet would be my top choices, and are OEM. I did have an E58 in a '79 St Regis that would give me 19 mpg in summer, and I hit the magic 20 mpg once with a Magnum 360 that I had in an '86 Fury AHB. Then again, the ELE 318 engine was no fuel sipper, either.

Fortunately, the ELA in an '89 5th Ave is a hydraulic roller engine with 9.0 compression 302 heads. But that engine was never offered with a 4bbl, and to convert it over, the carb needs to be tuned pretty lean for it to run decent and not dump fuel down the cylinders. Even at that, the change in the torque curve with the change in induction messes up tip-in response, which often results in heavier acceleration and higher fuel consumption.

Performance mods need to be thoughtfully planned out. There's tons of projects like this on Marketplace where the conversion was botched with mismatched parts, or the ultimate result is not what was hoped for. My goal with advice here is to (hopefully) help prevent that situation.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Update-
I don't intend to use the Edelbrock on this, at least not anytime soon.
Also the 2280 that I pulled is fundamentally the same as what was linked I think, it's currently taking it's dunk in the cleaner.

I cut out that 3rd Cat and put a pipe up in its place. Then my main friends came over, I had a hand, so we did some checking.

All at idle.
Vacuum was about 20psi. As long as it was not given gas it stayed 20-21 psi and would jitter in spot. Give it gas and it would drop right down and right back up with no hesitation. This reading was taken with vacuum gauge Inline with a T to the lean burn transducer nipple.

It was running well enough that we checked timing, I'll try to give as much details as I can here.

Timing mark was fairly consistent in where it sat.
Timing was retarded -4°
We advanced it up to 7° as per what the sticker on the car says.

Seemed to be a little happier however it does still cough and want to give up under any load.

We noticed however, if we turn on any one electronic, say the headlights, the rpms start to jump all over and it really starts to want to die.
Timing then jumps around with it.
If we run multiple electronics, say blower motor+rear defrost+headlights it will stabilize the rpms and run normal again, at least at idle.
Electronics all work as they should, and battery was holding charge no problem high 13v to low 14v

So just hitting the brakes, the brake lights come on, it starts to stumble and rpms jump all over.

Not entirely sure what to make of that, my first thought is voltage regulator but something tells me no.

I wonder if there is some sort of weirdness with the electrical and what is happening is the power/signals that are supposed to be going to the computer/solenoid are being halved or even fully cut off whenever another electronic gets turned on?
I only bring this up as removing the vacuum hose from the transducer seems to have the same effect as turning on a single electronic. Rpms jump all over from about 400 all the way up to about 1800 HOWEVER that's what the tach is reading, that is NOT what the motor is doing, it seems to be staying at a low rpm mark.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

I always ran an A999 behind a 360, and never had a problem. But - that's with a new convertor, new ATF+4, and known good bands and clutch pack. If you drive it somewhat sensibly, and make 500% sure the kickdown rod is adjusted properly, it'll last a good long time.

The 360 is perfectly happy with the tall 2.26 final drive, but most '89 cars had a 8.25 rear end. He might be lucky that way.

The 360 was never terribly fuel efficient, but using an Edelbrock carb certainly wouldn't help. A known good non-feedback 938X TQ or 17085408/543232 QJet would be my top choices, and are OEM. I did have an E58 in a '79 St Regis that would give me 19 mpg in summer, and I hit the magic 20 mpg once with a Magnum 360 that I had in an '86 Fury AHB. Then again, the ELE 318 engine was no fuel sipper, either.

Fortunately, the ELA in an '89 5th Ave is a hydraulic roller engine with 9.0 compression 302 heads. But that engine was never offered with a 4bbl, and to convert it over, the carb needs to be tuned pretty lean for it to run decent and not dump fuel down the cylinders. Even at that, the change in the torque curve with the change in induction messes up tip-in response, which often results in heavier acceleration and higher fuel consumption.

Performance mods need to be thoughtfully planned out. There's tons of projects like this on Marketplace where the conversion was botched with mismatched parts, or the ultimate result is not what was hoped for. My goal with advice here is to (hopefully) help prevent that situation.

Those later 302 head cars saw better improvement with a 4bbl swap then the older ones ever did. I've mainly run thermoquad but my first swap used a quadrajet and it ran ok but needed a rebuild and at that point I switched to something else.

I don't know if I've ever hit double digits with a 360 and city driving no matter how it was driven. Maybe possibly if it was driven like a grany but then you might as well have stuck with a 318. So it really depends on what sort of use it's going to get. He might get lucky and have an 8 1/4 already, thst would save a lot of work. I've never had a 904/99X last long term behind a 360, after the last one I put a 727 in and never looked back. I had planned in doing a 518 swap at some point but splitting driving with other cars I never got around to that. But should really start collecting the parts for that. It would be luck if the 998/999 with unknown history in that car survived for any decent amount of time behind a 360. If it was fairly new and low mileage I would take a chance on it already being there.

I've had 3 360 M bodies, one of which was factory and one is what that drivetrain got moved into and I will fully agree that if performance is what someone wants that's the best route to take. My general rule has always been only put into a 318 what you can move over to a 360 if/when the time comes.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

Update-
I don't intend to use the Edelbrock on this, at least not anytime soon.
Also the 2280 that I pulled is fundamentally the same as what was linked I think, it's currently taking it's dunk in the cleaner.

I cut out that 3rd Cat and put a pipe up in its place. Then my main friends came over, I had a hand, so we did some checking.

All at idle.
Vacuum was about 20psi. As long as it was not given gas it stayed 20-21 psi and would jitter in spot. Give it gas and it would drop right down and right back up with no hesitation. This reading was taken with vacuum gauge Inline with a T to the lean burn transducer nipple.

It was running well enough that we checked timing, I'll try to give as much details as I can here.

Timing mark was fairly consistent in where it sat.
Timing was retarded -4°
We advanced it up to 7° as per what the sticker on the car says.

Seemed to be a little happier however it does still cough and want to give up under any load.

We noticed however, if we turn on any one electronic, say the headlights, the rpms start to jump all over and it really starts to want to die.
If we run multiple electronics, say blower motor+rear defrost+headlights it will stabilize the rpms and run normal again, at least at idle.
Electronics all work as they should, and battery was holding charge no problem high 13v to low 14v

So just hitting the brakes, the brake lights come on, it starts to stumble and rpms jump all over.

Not entirely sure what to make of that, my first thought is voltage regulator but something tells me no.

I wonder if there is some sort of weirdness with the electrical and what is happening is the power/signals that are supposed to be going to the computer/solenoid are being halved or even fully cut off whenever another electronic gets turned on?
I only bring this up as removing the vacuum hose from the transducer seems to have the same effect as turning on a single electronic. Rpms jump all over from about 400 all the way up to about 1800 HOWEVER that's what the tach is reading, that is NOT what the motor is doing, it seems to be staying at a low rpm mark.

You'll need to get the carb/ignition issues sorted out before second guessing other problems. You could always try a new voltage regulator they're pretty cheap. The biggest sign of a failing one is when it's running properly the lights will more noticeably get brighter and dimmer as you drive around.
The brake thing could possibly be part of that if it's idling high enough to charge and doesn't have a weak battery but could also be signs that perhaps the brake booster is bad causing a big vacuum leak.

 

[AHBguru]

Voltage regulator tends to fail - in my experience - by overcharging, but it's definitely worth getting a voltmeter on that thing and getting it figured out, but quick. I suspect a bad ground, probably the main ground between the battery and left head. Sometimes a bad alternator diode will muck things up, too.

You test the computer exactly the way I noted:

- make sure everything is connected. Check for timing advance up to 2500-3000 RPM. Then test the idle solenoid. If no good, you really can't get too much farther until that's rectified. But remember, with the new ignition kit, you need the aftermarket coil, and also test for excessive play in the timing chain and a worn dampner.

I suspect you have at least one massive vacuum leak, probably a cracked PCV, brake booster, or bowl vent/return hose. Sometimes the check valve grommet on the brake booster goes bad, so check that. If your fancy red hose is still in place, it's probably collapsing under 20 lbs of vacuum. Get some rubber vacuum hoses in there.

I also strongly suspect you've got a timing chain that's not long for this world. That requires a simple check using TDC (compression stroke) on #1 cylinder as a starting point. Make certain you don't have your distributor in 180° out.

 

[SonOfaTomP]

Those later 302 head cars saw better improvement with a 4bbl swap then the older ones ever did. I've mainly run thermoquad but my first swap used a quadrajet and it ran ok but needed a rebuild and at that point I switched to something else.

I don't know if I've ever hit double digits with a 360 and city driving no matter how it was driven. Maybe possibly if it was driven like a grany but then you might as well have stuck with a 318. So it really depends on what sort of use it's going to get. He might get lucky and have an 8 1/4 already, thst would save a lot of work. I've never had a 904/99X last long term behind a 360, after the last one I put a 727 in and never looked back. I had planned in doing a 518 swap at some point but splitting driving with other cars I never got around to that. But should really start collecting the parts for that. It would be luck if the 998/999 with unknown history in that car survived for any decent amount of time behind a 360. If it was fairly new and low mileage I would take a chance on it already being there.

I've had 3 360 M bodies, one of which was factory and one is what that drivetrain got moved into and I will fully agree that if performance is what someone wants that's the best route to take. My general rule has always been only put into a 318 what you can move over to a 360 if/when the time comes.

factory 360 M's are real?