AJ/FormS
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Take the breather back off, check for squirter action,and try again
What year and engine size, again?
What year and engine size, again?
318 down
- Thread starter Intrepolicious
- Start date
Intrepolicious
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It's an 80 Córdoba with the 318. Lean burn conversion already done.
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
I've run out of time to play for today.. have to head off to work tonight. I'll be back at it in the morning.
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
I can still check the forums with my phone of course, but I'll be a few miles away from the car...
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
So it's getting some squirt in the carb, and it has spark. Maybe fuel filter or pump?
"Some squirt" then yes, you have an empty fuel bowl.
The fuel pump, a hole in fuel line or empty fuel tank are most likely causes.
Fuel filter might be a cause but that generally will cause a lack of WOT power more than no fuel at all (unless completely stopped up).
I would remove the fuel filter (good time to change it, anyway), a short section of fuel hose and something for fuel to be pumped into.
Crank engine and check for output.
BudW
The fuel pump, a hole in fuel line or empty fuel tank are most likely causes.
Fuel filter might be a cause but that generally will cause a lack of WOT power more than no fuel at all (unless completely stopped up).
I would remove the fuel filter (good time to change it, anyway), a short section of fuel hose and something for fuel to be pumped into.
Crank engine and check for output.
BudW
MiradaMegacab
Well-Known Member
Maybe loosen the gas filler cap.... You might have a "vacuum" in the fuel tank... That can create an intermittent no start or hesitation issue....
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
Hmm thanks guys, you've got my gears (the ones in my head) turning. I remember putting gas in the gar the other day, when I removed the gas cap, there was a pressure release when it came off (like a "ssshhhhwoooosh" type sound)
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
Well I know it has a full tank of gas.. I just put $40 in it yesterday.
AJ/FormS
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Or my favorite is the little jumper hose in the back,at the tank to the mainline. When this guy starts leaking it is above the liquid line, so it rarely leaks fuel. Instead, it leaks air into the main line. As the pump sucks up fuel it also sucks air. It pumps that mixture up into the carb, and the air escapes. But eventually a big bubble of air ends up at the pump, and the carb runs dry and everything comes to a halt.
When the engine quits there is some air and some fuel everywhere in the system.The fuel between the carb and the pump migrates downward as the air goes up. The float valve is open so some air escapes there. Between the pump and the tank, the fuel settles to the low spot and the air rises towards the ends At the back it rises up towards the jumper. At the front it rises towards the pump.
So now along you come and start cranking it. It takes a long time, but eventually a good pump will bring that slug of pure gas up to it, and start pushing it into the carb. At the other end, because the pump has been able to suck hard every time the eccentric comes around, it is pulling a pretty good vacuum, and has got the fuel up over the top. Of course it is still drawing some air.
Finally there is enough fuel in the carb and the engine springs to life. If you now drive away, and get the rpm up, the pump continues to draw fuel cuz you are not asking the pump to deadhead full time. But if you slow down and let it idle, then the pump more or less deadheads and stops pulling fuel in. This allows time for the fuel and air to separate, and the air piles up in front of the pump, and pretty soon the engine stalls again. As the fuel level in the tank drops, there comes a time that the pump can no longer pull it up.
So then you blame the pump and rush out and get a new one. And that helps not a bit. So you are out $70 bucks, and not a bit smarter for it. So what's next? Well maybe the sock is plugged,you might think. So you pull the tank down and remove it, and it looks perfect. And you blow the line out, and find nothing in it. So you put the tank back up with a new jumper, and
lo and behold, the problem has miraculously disappeared.
If you had to pay someone to do this work, I'm willing to bet that he is gonna put a new sender in there for good measure. So you pay for a pump, a tank-inspection, a new sender with sock, probably a foot of hose, some clamps, etc, and a couple of hours shop time. Grand total? more than a weeks wages.
Actual cost of correct do-it-yourself repair? Maybe $5.
When I have trouble like this, I just replace that jumper and if I cannot reuse the factory spring-clamps, then I double gear-clamp both sides with the screw heads 180* out of phase. Or else the customer will be right back when his gas goes low.
There is a test for this. With the engine recently stalled,remove the top of the carb. Most carbs will idle just fine with the top off. Fill the bowl 3/4 full of gas, and bleed the accelerator pump. Start her up. Now go watch the bowl. If you see air bubbles coming thru the float valve AND the fuel level dropping, there you have it.
No air bubbles and a dropping level would be either a bad pump or a restricted suction line. The presence of bubbles tells the story.
There is a second test. Install a new see-thru fuel filter. Fill the bowl thru the vent tube, and start her up. The pump should fill that filter in a couple of minutes at idle. The pump should force most of the air out. If the filter is laying on its side it will remain only partially filled but the outlet port should remain covered with fuel.Over time, the air will tend to migrate out.
But if it remains empty, or the outlet port does not become covered, and the engine stalls,there you have it. This is an easy test, and the tech does not even have to babysit it.
When the engine quits there is some air and some fuel everywhere in the system.The fuel between the carb and the pump migrates downward as the air goes up. The float valve is open so some air escapes there. Between the pump and the tank, the fuel settles to the low spot and the air rises towards the ends At the back it rises up towards the jumper. At the front it rises towards the pump.
So now along you come and start cranking it. It takes a long time, but eventually a good pump will bring that slug of pure gas up to it, and start pushing it into the carb. At the other end, because the pump has been able to suck hard every time the eccentric comes around, it is pulling a pretty good vacuum, and has got the fuel up over the top. Of course it is still drawing some air.
Finally there is enough fuel in the carb and the engine springs to life. If you now drive away, and get the rpm up, the pump continues to draw fuel cuz you are not asking the pump to deadhead full time. But if you slow down and let it idle, then the pump more or less deadheads and stops pulling fuel in. This allows time for the fuel and air to separate, and the air piles up in front of the pump, and pretty soon the engine stalls again. As the fuel level in the tank drops, there comes a time that the pump can no longer pull it up.
So then you blame the pump and rush out and get a new one. And that helps not a bit. So you are out $70 bucks, and not a bit smarter for it. So what's next? Well maybe the sock is plugged,you might think. So you pull the tank down and remove it, and it looks perfect. And you blow the line out, and find nothing in it. So you put the tank back up with a new jumper, and
lo and behold, the problem has miraculously disappeared.
If you had to pay someone to do this work, I'm willing to bet that he is gonna put a new sender in there for good measure. So you pay for a pump, a tank-inspection, a new sender with sock, probably a foot of hose, some clamps, etc, and a couple of hours shop time. Grand total? more than a weeks wages.
Actual cost of correct do-it-yourself repair? Maybe $5.
When I have trouble like this, I just replace that jumper and if I cannot reuse the factory spring-clamps, then I double gear-clamp both sides with the screw heads 180* out of phase. Or else the customer will be right back when his gas goes low.
There is a test for this. With the engine recently stalled,remove the top of the carb. Most carbs will idle just fine with the top off. Fill the bowl 3/4 full of gas, and bleed the accelerator pump. Start her up. Now go watch the bowl. If you see air bubbles coming thru the float valve AND the fuel level dropping, there you have it.
No air bubbles and a dropping level would be either a bad pump or a restricted suction line. The presence of bubbles tells the story.
There is a second test. Install a new see-thru fuel filter. Fill the bowl thru the vent tube, and start her up. The pump should fill that filter in a couple of minutes at idle. The pump should force most of the air out. If the filter is laying on its side it will remain only partially filled but the outlet port should remain covered with fuel.Over time, the air will tend to migrate out.
But if it remains empty, or the outlet port does not become covered, and the engine stalls,there you have it. This is an easy test, and the tech does not even have to babysit it.
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I forgot to mention, because it is a tight fit in the fuel filter/pump area, you might want to loosen the alternator, remove the drive belt(s) from pulley and pull to the side, then tilt alternator up and out of the way. That might be helpful, if you can’t see the area or got big hands.
Chrysler has two official fuel pump tests, Vacuum and pressure.
Vacuum (on line coming from tank) should be between 11” to 22” of vacuum.
I have removed a lot of fuel pumps in my life and have never ran a vacuum test (yet).
Fuel pressure test results should be 5.75 to 7.25 PSI.
I don’t like pressure tests because of leaks, finding the correct fittings and so forth – it just takes time to perform.
No other recommended test results from Chrysler.
My recommended test is the fuel volume test.
Just disconnect the fuel filter, get a piece of hose, 1.5 to 2 foot, maybe, attach to the fuel pump side of fuel filter (filter should be removed at this point). There is no official spec - but a pint of fuel every 30 seconds of cranking is about right.
The fuel volume test is the fastest, easiest one and tells me more than any other test I know of.
Note: the small hose from fuel filter sends the excessive fuel (what carburetor doesn’t need) and sends it back to the fuel tank. This does remove a ton of vapor lock problems.
In your container, the one you used for fuel volume test, you should be able to see any contaminates (dirt, rubber, etc.) or water (which settles to bottom and will separate from fuel (which floats and has a slight tint in color to it).
Other than displacing the air in your temporary fuel hose – there should not be any air bubbles in the fuel. Most rubber hoses crack over time and it is easier to suck air and to suck a liquid (what AJ/FormS said).
My diesel pickup has a bad problem with the fuel return hose cracking and diesel running back to the tank. The problem is without fuel in that return hose, the mechanical fuel injection pump can’t build pressure. It makes no logical sense, and just about all hard starting concerns are fixed by replacing both hoses (both are generally cracked).
Our cars are not sensitive to fuel return line leaks, matter of fact, you can get a 5/16” 2 line filter and just not hook anything up to the fuel return line and will be fine. Personally, I would use the 3 line filter because it does help with vapor lock issues.
Tires, radiator/heater hoses, fan belts, just about anything rubber will wear out in the elements. FMJ fuel hoses will crack over time and generally will leak air, not fuel (contrary to belief), unless you park at a steep angle with a full tank (then you can experience fuel leakage).
Most FMJ cars also has a hidden fuel hose that is hard to get to. You have to remove the Right Front tire to get to it. It is on top of the frame rail where it meets the firewall. That short piece of hose (about the length of fuel filter hose) has caused more than one mechanic to lose hair over it.
The pictures below is hard to see (the best copy I have) and it is the Red Circle in picture.
Expanded view of picture above.
Another expanded view of picture above.
This is from my ’82 parts book and should be the same as your ’80 Cordoba.
BudW
Edit: Another possibility is a rusted hole (or physical damage) to the fuel line somewhere.
Chrysler has two official fuel pump tests, Vacuum and pressure.
Vacuum (on line coming from tank) should be between 11” to 22” of vacuum.
I have removed a lot of fuel pumps in my life and have never ran a vacuum test (yet).
Fuel pressure test results should be 5.75 to 7.25 PSI.
I don’t like pressure tests because of leaks, finding the correct fittings and so forth – it just takes time to perform.
No other recommended test results from Chrysler.
My recommended test is the fuel volume test.
Just disconnect the fuel filter, get a piece of hose, 1.5 to 2 foot, maybe, attach to the fuel pump side of fuel filter (filter should be removed at this point). There is no official spec - but a pint of fuel every 30 seconds of cranking is about right.
The fuel volume test is the fastest, easiest one and tells me more than any other test I know of.
Note: the small hose from fuel filter sends the excessive fuel (what carburetor doesn’t need) and sends it back to the fuel tank. This does remove a ton of vapor lock problems.
In your container, the one you used for fuel volume test, you should be able to see any contaminates (dirt, rubber, etc.) or water (which settles to bottom and will separate from fuel (which floats and has a slight tint in color to it).
Other than displacing the air in your temporary fuel hose – there should not be any air bubbles in the fuel. Most rubber hoses crack over time and it is easier to suck air and to suck a liquid (what AJ/FormS said).
My diesel pickup has a bad problem with the fuel return hose cracking and diesel running back to the tank. The problem is without fuel in that return hose, the mechanical fuel injection pump can’t build pressure. It makes no logical sense, and just about all hard starting concerns are fixed by replacing both hoses (both are generally cracked).
Our cars are not sensitive to fuel return line leaks, matter of fact, you can get a 5/16” 2 line filter and just not hook anything up to the fuel return line and will be fine. Personally, I would use the 3 line filter because it does help with vapor lock issues.
Tires, radiator/heater hoses, fan belts, just about anything rubber will wear out in the elements. FMJ fuel hoses will crack over time and generally will leak air, not fuel (contrary to belief), unless you park at a steep angle with a full tank (then you can experience fuel leakage).
Most FMJ cars also has a hidden fuel hose that is hard to get to. You have to remove the Right Front tire to get to it. It is on top of the frame rail where it meets the firewall. That short piece of hose (about the length of fuel filter hose) has caused more than one mechanic to lose hair over it.
The pictures below is hard to see (the best copy I have) and it is the Red Circle in picture.
Expanded view of picture above.
Another expanded view of picture above.
This is from my ’82 parts book and should be the same as your ’80 Cordoba.
BudW
Edit: Another possibility is a rusted hole (or physical damage) to the fuel line somewhere.
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Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
Wow thanks guys!, this is a lot of really useful info! I finally had time to catch up and read it all. I'll be doing some more diagnosing in the a.m. and I will post my findings here of course.
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
AJ, and BudW, thank you both (and everyone else that responded!) so much for taking the time to post all that info on the fuel system. I really appreciate all of it!
AJ, what you were describing about the air in the lines, sounded like you were describing exactly what was happening with my car! To the T...
The car sat overnight and all those air bubbles must have come to the surface, because I go out this morning and turn the key, and she starts right up! Like she's looking at me going "what are you talking about Ed? What do you mean 'I wouldn't start up?'" lol oh jeez.. I'm naming this car;
"Charlene!"
AJ, what you were describing about the air in the lines, sounded like you were describing exactly what was happening with my car! To the T...
The car sat overnight and all those air bubbles must have come to the surface, because I go out this morning and turn the key, and she starts right up! Like she's looking at me going "what are you talking about Ed? What do you mean 'I wouldn't start up?'" lol oh jeez.. I'm naming this car;
"Charlene!"
Intrepolicious
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I think I am going to replace that fuel filter though anyway.
AJ/FormS
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If it started right up, then no, my post #30, does not apply, cuz obviously the carb had gas in it. In my scenario there would have been a long crank time as the pump had to fill the carb first.
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
Must have just been some trash in the carb or something. Whatever it was, the car has been starting up and running great all day today. I took a few short trips around town.. and then my 20-25 minute commute to work this evening. She's running great!
It could have been water in fuel (it only takes a few drops) or trash (as you mentioned).
If this is a one-time thing – don’t worry about it.
IF it comes back, then you will need to look further.
BudW
If this is a one-time thing – don’t worry about it.
IF it comes back, then you will need to look further.
BudW
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
Been running great for the last few days!
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
So Charlene started acting up again last night. She acted like she just ran out of gas cruising down the road at about 45mph with a 90% full tank...
Seems like I remember having the same exact amount of gas in the tank last time she did this. Hmm..
I was able to get her going again after playing with her, and talking to her a little... but I do think it's time to try a new pump and filter?
I dumped a can of seafoam in the tank last night to see what it'd do...
Seems like I remember having the same exact amount of gas in the tank last time she did this. Hmm..
I was able to get her going again after playing with her, and talking to her a little... but I do think it's time to try a new pump and filter?
I dumped a can of seafoam in the tank last night to see what it'd do...
Intrepolicious
Well-Known Member
Well, It came back. I wonder if I should pull the tank and try to clean it out.
