plyduster360
Active Member
Looking for advice on an aftermarket bigger rad that fits? Who's using what? I'm using stock fan setup belt driven
Aspen bigger radiator advice needed....
- Thread starter plyduster360
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Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
I use the largest radiator for for a Fbody. Now I had a /6 core support so I had to open the hole and drill holes for bolts that hold the radiator in place. Mine cools 440s with no problems.
The radiator I use is for a 360 AC car.
The radiator I use is for a 360 AC car.
M_Body_Coupe
Well-Known Member
ReadyRad (Proliance) part# 43-3959, 3-row, has kept up with my 360 motor and mechanical cooling (clutch-fan).
Let's see how it does on the W2 stroker build...but that report-out not coming until sometime this summer!
Here are some specs of what I saved up...
Let's see how it does on the W2 stroker build...but that report-out not coming until sometime this summer!
Here are some specs of what I saved up...
One thing that is missing is if the vehicle originally came with the narrow or wide radiator, to begin with.
My '77 wagon has an 18 inch wide radiator (318 2-bbl, automatic w/o A/C) with is the narrow version. Other size "narrow" versions can be 19, 20 or 22 inch wide cores.
The wide version is 26 inch wide and can come (from factory) as one, two or three core versions.
In my case, installing a 26 inch radiator into my wagon will make a huge difference - but that is easier said than done. You can see other forum posts for more details on this.
My '77 with 18 inch radiator:
This is from my '86 Fifth Ave:
A sharp eye will notice a white Modine sticker on this "brass" radiator. I didn't know it at the time, but this might have been one of the very last new "brass" FMJ radiators known to mankind. This picture was taken maybe 10 years ago.
If you have a 26 inch radiator already, replacing it with aluminum might be most cost effetive. It won't look the same but aluminum does a better job with heat transfer over brass.
BudW
My '77 wagon has an 18 inch wide radiator (318 2-bbl, automatic w/o A/C) with is the narrow version. Other size "narrow" versions can be 19, 20 or 22 inch wide cores.
The wide version is 26 inch wide and can come (from factory) as one, two or three core versions.
In my case, installing a 26 inch radiator into my wagon will make a huge difference - but that is easier said than done. You can see other forum posts for more details on this.
My '77 with 18 inch radiator:
This is from my '86 Fifth Ave:
A sharp eye will notice a white Modine sticker on this "brass" radiator. I didn't know it at the time, but this might have been one of the very last new "brass" FMJ radiators known to mankind. This picture was taken maybe 10 years ago.
If you have a 26 inch radiator already, replacing it with aluminum might be most cost effetive. It won't look the same but aluminum does a better job with heat transfer over brass.
BudW
9secRR
Well-Known Member
i used the factory rad in my R/T and it had no problem keeping a 440'' SB 13.:1 compression in operating temps. never got over 190*
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
About 1994 I had a local VERY Mopar friendly rad shop (Glen-Ray Radiators on the NE side of Wausau) build a rad for me. They used 26" f-body tanks and side brackets from an old one they had in stock, and put a 3 row core in. IIRC they said it was a 2 core to begin with. Same radiator in the car to this day. With 500", on a 90 degree day with the A/C cranked to max, gauge has never gone past center. Stock gauge so don't know what temp that actually is but I'd guess 210-220(?) Not that it matters really but, it looks stock under the hood to boot.
Guess I should add a disclaimer. Along with the 3 core rad, there's also a high flow Milodon pump, high flow Robert Shaw t-stat, stock f-body shroud and 7 blade clutch fan and a 50/50 mix of coolant with a bottle of Redline Water Wetter, plus the stock hood to yoke seal. My point is, cooling is more than just a big radiator (he says, preaching to the choir, lol).
Guess I should add a disclaimer. Along with the 3 core rad, there's also a high flow Milodon pump, high flow Robert Shaw t-stat, stock f-body shroud and 7 blade clutch fan and a 50/50 mix of coolant with a bottle of Redline Water Wetter, plus the stock hood to yoke seal. My point is, cooling is more than just a big radiator (he says, preaching to the choir, lol).
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Aspen500
Well-Known Member
Even something seemingly minor as the hood to radiator yoke seal missing COULD cause problems, potentially. Trick is to get as much air as possible through the radiator, not take the path of least resistance and go around it. That's why it's called a cooling system.
M_Body_Coupe
Well-Known Member
So the "high flow" thermostats...OK, I've always looked a these as a little bit of "snake oil"...but for those of you who have actually used these, can/could you tell the improvement?
Keep in mind the following, I ask this as I'm literally in the middle of:
1) removing the as-cast narrowing in the timing chain cover's engine coolant passage
2) welding on a FlowKooler backing plate onto my existing 6-impeller pump to optimize the amount of water movement that the pump normally provides
So you bet my focus is on producing a real improvement, needed or not, better to have extra cooling capacity than not enough!
Keep in mind the following, I ask this as I'm literally in the middle of:
1) removing the as-cast narrowing in the timing chain cover's engine coolant passage
2) welding on a FlowKooler backing plate onto my existing 6-impeller pump to optimize the amount of water movement that the pump normally provides
So you bet my focus is on producing a real improvement, needed or not, better to have extra cooling capacity than not enough!
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I'm not really sure about the high flow t-stat other than Milodon recommended using one with their water pump. I never had the current pump with a standard stat. A high volume pump is a waste if the volume can't flow, but of course the coolant can't flow too fast or the engine will overheat. It has to be in the radiator long enough to transfer heat to the air. Reason a restrictor is needed if not running a t-stat, like in a race car. My understanding also is a high flow pump reduces the chance of cavitation. The high flow stat I used, if it fails, is supposed to fail open, not closed. Never looked to see how it's designed to do that however. Then again, how often does a t-stat fail? My '96 Dakota with 180,000 miles still has the original, and it works as good now as it did in 1998 when I bought the truck.
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I used a 160 degree Milodon high flow stat in my 360. Worked fine, but I don't have anything to directly compare it to. Swapped it out the same time I went to a larger radiator.
I would totally recommend drilling an 1/8" hole in it as a vent though. Makes burping the air out of the system a hell of a lot easier.
I would totally recommend drilling an 1/8" hole in it as a vent though. Makes burping the air out of the system a hell of a lot easier.
M_Body_Coupe
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah, learned that lesson fairly quickly on one of my very first (or 2nd) rebuilds...
volare 1977
Well-Known Member
does anyone make those hood to core support rubber seals for the f body?
AJ/FormS
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The hi-flo stats have a larger window opening, than the more common stuff.
Stats only set the Minimum cooling system temp, by closing below their rated temp. Once they have opened as far as they can, they are just there. The big window is then LESS of a restriction to the circulating coolant.
The hi-temperature limit is set by the efficiency of the system. If you can get a 30* temperature drop from top to bottom in the rad, that is about as good as it gets. If your system over-cools, the stat will begin to close, to keep the heat up.
How you are able to achieve that at various roadspeeds, rpms, and engine load settings, will determine the success of your system.
IMO, Actual rad size, while part of the system, is NOT the biggest part of it.
IMO, the biggest part is getting air thru it. and
IMO, I doubt your engine can pump coolant thru the rad too fast; unless it causes turbulence in the heads or something. I'm not saying it can or can't. Just saying I doubt it.
Most guys don't want to hear this, but
IMO, you cannot have too big a fan or too many blades; Just put it on a Thermostatic Clutch and forget about it. Let it do it's thing.
If the 6-blade pump with an anti-cavitation plate welded on, cannot keep up, get you an 8-vane Hi-flo.
If you swing an all-steel fan with the high attack-angle 7 blades, like I do, I recommend a HD pump which will have a bigger impeller-shaft and bearing. My Milodon was new in about 2002, and is still going; cheapest pump I ever bought.
My rad is an ancient 26incher from a 75Dart; but it sits in the original 22 inch core-support; the rad has patches on it's patches.
Of course!, I run a shroud and core-to-hood seal, lol, and a seven pound cap. My system runs at 205 to 207*F; which is the cut-in point of the clutch......... I guess, lol.
Keep in mind that one of the biggest enemies of the engine is retarded ignition timing. In this situation, the still-burning and expanding gases, chase after the piston, sending a lotta heat into the cylinder walls, where it's not supposed to be. At lower rpms, if the mixture is not finished burning when it begins to exit the chamber, it will send additional heat into the exhaust ports and headers, which may upset or destroy the working of the overlap cycle. At idle and up to about 2400, and whenever the engine is lightly loaded, it will like a lot of advance; typically over 50* at 2400 and cruising.
By the trapspeed, my 367 is making about 430hp. She runs 3.55s behind a Commando 4speed and a GV-overdrive; 65=2240rpm
BTW; that big 7-blade fan on the Thermostatic clutch will NOT suck 30hp at 7000rpm; that is a misrepresentation of what actually happens.
During the blast thru the gears, your engine will not even know the fan is there because ........... the fan is not directly driven by the crank; but is driven by the viscous coupling, much like the automatic transmission is Never directly coupled. Additionally, the rad is now being cooled by ram-air. If it overcools, the Stat will begin to close in an effort to maintain the minimum temperature. As soon as the engine rpm stabilizes, the viscous fluid will re-couple, and the
fan will return to it's job of moving air. That fan does most or perhaps all of it's work below 30/40 mph. After that; ram-air.
Stats only set the Minimum cooling system temp, by closing below their rated temp. Once they have opened as far as they can, they are just there. The big window is then LESS of a restriction to the circulating coolant.
The hi-temperature limit is set by the efficiency of the system. If you can get a 30* temperature drop from top to bottom in the rad, that is about as good as it gets. If your system over-cools, the stat will begin to close, to keep the heat up.
How you are able to achieve that at various roadspeeds, rpms, and engine load settings, will determine the success of your system.
IMO, Actual rad size, while part of the system, is NOT the biggest part of it.
IMO, the biggest part is getting air thru it. and
IMO, I doubt your engine can pump coolant thru the rad too fast; unless it causes turbulence in the heads or something. I'm not saying it can or can't. Just saying I doubt it.
Most guys don't want to hear this, but
IMO, you cannot have too big a fan or too many blades; Just put it on a Thermostatic Clutch and forget about it. Let it do it's thing.
If the 6-blade pump with an anti-cavitation plate welded on, cannot keep up, get you an 8-vane Hi-flo.
If you swing an all-steel fan with the high attack-angle 7 blades, like I do, I recommend a HD pump which will have a bigger impeller-shaft and bearing. My Milodon was new in about 2002, and is still going; cheapest pump I ever bought.
My rad is an ancient 26incher from a 75Dart; but it sits in the original 22 inch core-support; the rad has patches on it's patches.
Of course!, I run a shroud and core-to-hood seal, lol, and a seven pound cap. My system runs at 205 to 207*F; which is the cut-in point of the clutch......... I guess, lol.
Keep in mind that one of the biggest enemies of the engine is retarded ignition timing. In this situation, the still-burning and expanding gases, chase after the piston, sending a lotta heat into the cylinder walls, where it's not supposed to be. At lower rpms, if the mixture is not finished burning when it begins to exit the chamber, it will send additional heat into the exhaust ports and headers, which may upset or destroy the working of the overlap cycle. At idle and up to about 2400, and whenever the engine is lightly loaded, it will like a lot of advance; typically over 50* at 2400 and cruising.
By the trapspeed, my 367 is making about 430hp. She runs 3.55s behind a Commando 4speed and a GV-overdrive; 65=2240rpm
BTW; that big 7-blade fan on the Thermostatic clutch will NOT suck 30hp at 7000rpm; that is a misrepresentation of what actually happens.
During the blast thru the gears, your engine will not even know the fan is there because ........... the fan is not directly driven by the crank; but is driven by the viscous coupling, much like the automatic transmission is Never directly coupled. Additionally, the rad is now being cooled by ram-air. If it overcools, the Stat will begin to close in an effort to maintain the minimum temperature. As soon as the engine rpm stabilizes, the viscous fluid will re-couple, and the
fan will return to it's job of moving air. That fan does most or perhaps all of it's work below 30/40 mph. After that; ram-air.
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This came off of Dippy.org. 3 core bolt in radiator.
This is my plan as soon as I get a little further on my 76 RR restore.
Three Core Radiator Upgrade
This is excerpted from a couple of posts by Steve Knickerbocker (Thunderstruck) on the old site, and a great post on the current site by member Chargincharles, titled "The End of the Radiator Discussions".
Steve: "I have found a three core radiator that fits my 87 Diplomat like it was made for it. I did some poking around on a couple of online parts stores and I found out that an 87 Ram (with no AC) uses the same radiator (GDI 43-3500) as an 87 Diplomat (with AC). The books list GDI 43-3500 as a 2 core radiator for this application.
Well, I said to myself if our normal radiator works in a non-AC Ram would an AC equipped Ram's radiator be of larger capacity AND fit?
So I found, online, a picture of our "normal" radiator and one for the AC equipped Ram. The AC equipped Ram has a three row core, same dimensions height and width wise on the core (total height and width not given) but slightly thicker. As it turns out the AC Ram radiator was a bit cheaper than the one spec'd for or M bodes so I bought it.
I pulled my factory ONE row radiator out and compared the mounting points and shroud fitment. The mounting points were identical. The tanks are a bit larger on the Ram radiator and the shroud attaching points are "universal" in nature, They work though there is more of a gap betwen the radiator and shroud than the factory setup has.
The stock M body upper hose attached perfectly. The only mod I had to do was get the lower radiator hose for the truck, as the outlet on the radiator is 1 3/4" versus the M body's 1 1/2" outlet. I had to trim about 1" off each end of the lower hose and it fit perfectly. At $131.00 new from Autozone (2003 price) I can't see fooling with a recore or a boneyard donor."
Chargincharles: "The Part Number is 433959, purchased at OReillys Auto Parts, but can be had at MANY outlets. This is the radiator carried by Rock Auto and Advance Auto as well. It is made by Modine- just like the OEM unit. The fan shroud lines up just fine, and bolts up just fine. This is an aluminum core radiator with 2 cores and a MUCH higher fin count than the OEM brass/copper radiator. The tanks are BRASS - NOT Plastic. The unit sold by Autozone IS a plastic tank version of this radiator. I verified this by looking at the ACTUAL radiator at Autozone. The radiator at Pep Boys is ALSO the PLASTIC tank version. These are made by Spectra.
YOU WILL NEED THE LOWER HOSE FROM THE RAM, which is Gates part number 20046.
You will need to trim 1 inch from the water pump side, and 2" from the inlet side. Custom measure this though, because every car COULD be different.
Finally - it bolts in just fine. I have been running the last week with it and (have had) absolutely zero problems. The car does not overheat, or get overly warm, even though it has been in the 90's here in Cincy (Cincinnati Ohio), and I was driving on the highway at extra-legal speeds for about 70 miles. No issues whatsoever with this. Also- Ignore the descriptions on the website - GO AND LOOK at the radiator in question....
I hope this FINALLY clears up everything. If anyone wants to see pics of it installed, let me know, but it looks just exactly like the old one- so what's the point....
And a final point - this radiator is $10 LESS than the 'correct' replacement radiator which has copper tubes/brass tank, is still 2 core, and has a lesser fin count. I again verified all this by comparing the two side by side. So why bother??? Enjoy! CC."
Bill Moore (Bill55az) added that recoring your radiator to three core is another option if your tanks are large enough: "I had a 79 Volare wagon with rotted core, and the radiator shop put in a new 3 row core for me, about $130."
Recap of Parts List From Steve's Posts:
Links - courtesy of Chargincharles
Link to Radiator- http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...odge&model=W250&vi=1101137&pt=01386&ppt=C0331
Link to Hose- http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...odge&model=W250&vi=1101137&pt=01358&ppt=C0331
Photos - All photos courtesy of Chargincharles
This is my plan as soon as I get a little further on my 76 RR restore.
Three Core Radiator Upgrade
This is excerpted from a couple of posts by Steve Knickerbocker (Thunderstruck) on the old site, and a great post on the current site by member Chargincharles, titled "The End of the Radiator Discussions".
Steve: "I have found a three core radiator that fits my 87 Diplomat like it was made for it. I did some poking around on a couple of online parts stores and I found out that an 87 Ram (with no AC) uses the same radiator (GDI 43-3500) as an 87 Diplomat (with AC). The books list GDI 43-3500 as a 2 core radiator for this application.
Well, I said to myself if our normal radiator works in a non-AC Ram would an AC equipped Ram's radiator be of larger capacity AND fit?
So I found, online, a picture of our "normal" radiator and one for the AC equipped Ram. The AC equipped Ram has a three row core, same dimensions height and width wise on the core (total height and width not given) but slightly thicker. As it turns out the AC Ram radiator was a bit cheaper than the one spec'd for or M bodes so I bought it.
I pulled my factory ONE row radiator out and compared the mounting points and shroud fitment. The mounting points were identical. The tanks are a bit larger on the Ram radiator and the shroud attaching points are "universal" in nature, They work though there is more of a gap betwen the radiator and shroud than the factory setup has.
The stock M body upper hose attached perfectly. The only mod I had to do was get the lower radiator hose for the truck, as the outlet on the radiator is 1 3/4" versus the M body's 1 1/2" outlet. I had to trim about 1" off each end of the lower hose and it fit perfectly. At $131.00 new from Autozone (2003 price) I can't see fooling with a recore or a boneyard donor."
Chargincharles: "The Part Number is 433959, purchased at OReillys Auto Parts, but can be had at MANY outlets. This is the radiator carried by Rock Auto and Advance Auto as well. It is made by Modine- just like the OEM unit. The fan shroud lines up just fine, and bolts up just fine. This is an aluminum core radiator with 2 cores and a MUCH higher fin count than the OEM brass/copper radiator. The tanks are BRASS - NOT Plastic. The unit sold by Autozone IS a plastic tank version of this radiator. I verified this by looking at the ACTUAL radiator at Autozone. The radiator at Pep Boys is ALSO the PLASTIC tank version. These are made by Spectra.
YOU WILL NEED THE LOWER HOSE FROM THE RAM, which is Gates part number 20046.
You will need to trim 1 inch from the water pump side, and 2" from the inlet side. Custom measure this though, because every car COULD be different.
Finally - it bolts in just fine. I have been running the last week with it and (have had) absolutely zero problems. The car does not overheat, or get overly warm, even though it has been in the 90's here in Cincy (Cincinnati Ohio), and I was driving on the highway at extra-legal speeds for about 70 miles. No issues whatsoever with this. Also- Ignore the descriptions on the website - GO AND LOOK at the radiator in question....
I hope this FINALLY clears up everything. If anyone wants to see pics of it installed, let me know, but it looks just exactly like the old one- so what's the point....
And a final point - this radiator is $10 LESS than the 'correct' replacement radiator which has copper tubes/brass tank, is still 2 core, and has a lesser fin count. I again verified all this by comparing the two side by side. So why bother??? Enjoy! CC."
Bill Moore (Bill55az) added that recoring your radiator to three core is another option if your tanks are large enough: "I had a 79 Volare wagon with rotted core, and the radiator shop put in a new 3 row core for me, about $130."
Recap of Parts List From Steve's Posts:
- 87 Dodge Ram Pickup 360 with AC Three row radiator - GDI number 43-3959 - less than $132.00 at Autozone (2003 price)
- 87 Dodge Ram Pickup 360 1 3/4" in diameter lower molded hose. The hose must be trimmed about 1” on each end to fit.
Links - courtesy of Chargincharles
Link to Radiator- http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...odge&model=W250&vi=1101137&pt=01386&ppt=C0331
Link to Hose- http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...odge&model=W250&vi=1101137&pt=01358&ppt=C0331
Photos - All photos courtesy of Chargincharles
- Engine Side: Left - Modine 433959, Right - stock M-Body unit
- Engine Side: Modine 433959 showing alignment with stock M-Body fan shroud
- Driver's Side: Left - Modine 433959, Right - stock M-Body unit
volare 1977
Well-Known Member
I had a small block mopar radiator recored to a three row about 15 years ago and they charged me $300 back then.
Mikes5thAve
Well-Known Member
My 318 5th came with a narrow tank rad. I don't know of it was always like that or replaced at some point. My 88 has a thicker one. When it needed one about 20 years ago the only replacements I could get here were junk. They were so cheap that they had wires running across them to reinforce the mounting brackets and they didn't clear the ac compressor. The drain cock and plugs were all plastic. It went back and I had the original recored.
When my truck needed one it was right when they were switching inventory to plastic/aluminum and even tho the listings all said they were metal they weren't. Then the tanks also looked nothing like stock and since it's right in your face when you open the hood I had that one recored too.
It might be a good thing because a mopar buddy of mine bought several rads right when they were going to plastic and now they're starting to leak because their tanks are rusting through. I have one in my shop and while it looks like copper/brass it looks like it was only coated over steel and rusted through.
When my truck needed one it was right when they were switching inventory to plastic/aluminum and even tho the listings all said they were metal they weren't. Then the tanks also looked nothing like stock and since it's right in your face when you open the hood I had that one recored too.
It might be a good thing because a mopar buddy of mine bought several rads right when they were going to plastic and now they're starting to leak because their tanks are rusting through. I have one in my shop and while it looks like copper/brass it looks like it was only coated over steel and rusted through.
