Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
Do you really think it's that many turns I don't. I'm thinking one and one half at the most.
Big Block Guys, Need Advice: 400ci and 727 into an Imperial
- Thread starter Bryan M.
- Start date
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I don't know for sure, 5 turns was a wild guess. All I remember is, it wasn't very much. When I did the original S6 to BB swap back in '89, I do recall the front of the car being approx. an inch lower. At any rate, the stock t-bars are more than adequate.
I have the article(s) at home. I just forget to look for them when I get home.
BudW
I’m on the fence here. Yes, they will work as is (once adjusted to correct ride height) – but is too soft for my liking. The torsion bars are “too soft” for me with a 318 installed, so I will be going larger (FFI) bars once money allows – but that is my opinion.
BudW
It really does make me wonder why Mopar only made one style bar for these cars. The idea that police models used the same front spring rate that the models marketed to the sixty and over crowd did. But yeah, stout is the last word I would use to describe factory bars in these cars. Unfortunately the low demand and the added expense of making an L shaped bar makes them triple the cost of the straight style - probably more than what a lot of payed for the entire car. Even that said though, I still think they were worth the cost for the difference they made.
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Alot of good info and opinions. I think alot of the end result is what we individually want and expect out of our BB cars.
I did one 20 years ago and am collecting parts to do another. My last one was a iron headed, iron intake stock 440 mag with ac. Next one will be a 400 based stroker, al heads, al intake.
Lets think about a couple things. Traditionally a big block street stormer would not want a firm front end but more so a bit soft to utilize the weight transfer of to hook a BB. Just as a slot car racer wants to go as light as possible and probably would lean to a small block with a long stroke because really even a 318 with a 4 inch crank will kick the ass out of any fmj car even with good tires on the street. A good comparison is the real world testing of a stock 340 dart vs a 383 dart in et and overall handling. And really what would be a more well rounded car a street car that produced 400 pounds of tq or one that had 600 pounds of tq. If a fmj can only hook and go straight with 400 lbs tq thats the car id put my money on to win more times then not.
A good point was brought up that from a /6 F to a full dressed 360 M body 4 door boat but scale the front end and wow a vast weight difference.
Two sites have a chart showing a 440 at 670 weighing pounds and a la small block at 525, take what you could save with al. heads and intake and putting the battery in the trunk and the BB is right near oem la weight.
In Buds case as stated, thats not cool for him, buy the FF bars.
But for many over the years, and the first 440 swap I know of was in 77 and really the T bar aspect was never a huge issue in the overall mix because most who did them were not going for the firm ride good handling aspect.
Building a car for the street, most would say go the lightest route that achieves the most usable power level so imo the perfect street fmj would be a high tq small block WITH the FF T bars. Most of use are not power driving our fmj cars down the worst roads and worst weather conditions but rather limited driving and attentive cautious driving.
But back to my 440 mag build, it was a /6 that I dumped a all iron 440 mag in with ac, it was as agile as any of my 360 cars were. Front end didnt porpose? or float. It was a great driver but being a stock 440 mag it left alot to be desired vs a semi build 360 car but it still never felt nose heavy in the 440 car.
I guess my point is there is no right or wrong answer here on what T bars to use. One just needs to determine ahead of time there needs and expectations and build around it.
I applaud Buds strong convictions as hes consistent in his posts saying hes gonna build a BB stroker car or two and drive them hard and going right to the FF bars is a no brainer in his case. But id get a stack of good K members and all the parts with them as somethings gonna have to take the abuse. Ive one K (I need to replace) that I welded over 20 stress cracks on from the bare k itself to the ripped upper shock tower mounts.
But its not a must do for everyone but I can see the heavier M crowd doing the upgrade more then the lighter F crowd.
Its easier today then ever to do the swap, no motor mount worries with the ones we can buy off the shelf. No searching for headers, off the shelf work. The 727 is nearly the same. Oem BB oil pan can work. Swap the power booster, make sure you have a good cooling system and just drive.
I did one 20 years ago and am collecting parts to do another. My last one was a iron headed, iron intake stock 440 mag with ac. Next one will be a 400 based stroker, al heads, al intake.
Lets think about a couple things. Traditionally a big block street stormer would not want a firm front end but more so a bit soft to utilize the weight transfer of to hook a BB. Just as a slot car racer wants to go as light as possible and probably would lean to a small block with a long stroke because really even a 318 with a 4 inch crank will kick the ass out of any fmj car even with good tires on the street. A good comparison is the real world testing of a stock 340 dart vs a 383 dart in et and overall handling. And really what would be a more well rounded car a street car that produced 400 pounds of tq or one that had 600 pounds of tq. If a fmj can only hook and go straight with 400 lbs tq thats the car id put my money on to win more times then not.
A good point was brought up that from a /6 F to a full dressed 360 M body 4 door boat but scale the front end and wow a vast weight difference.
Two sites have a chart showing a 440 at 670 weighing pounds and a la small block at 525, take what you could save with al. heads and intake and putting the battery in the trunk and the BB is right near oem la weight.
In Buds case as stated, thats not cool for him, buy the FF bars.
But for many over the years, and the first 440 swap I know of was in 77 and really the T bar aspect was never a huge issue in the overall mix because most who did them were not going for the firm ride good handling aspect.
Building a car for the street, most would say go the lightest route that achieves the most usable power level so imo the perfect street fmj would be a high tq small block WITH the FF T bars. Most of use are not power driving our fmj cars down the worst roads and worst weather conditions but rather limited driving and attentive cautious driving.
But back to my 440 mag build, it was a /6 that I dumped a all iron 440 mag in with ac, it was as agile as any of my 360 cars were. Front end didnt porpose? or float. It was a great driver but being a stock 440 mag it left alot to be desired vs a semi build 360 car but it still never felt nose heavy in the 440 car.
I guess my point is there is no right or wrong answer here on what T bars to use. One just needs to determine ahead of time there needs and expectations and build around it.
I applaud Buds strong convictions as hes consistent in his posts saying hes gonna build a BB stroker car or two and drive them hard and going right to the FF bars is a no brainer in his case. But id get a stack of good K members and all the parts with them as somethings gonna have to take the abuse. Ive one K (I need to replace) that I welded over 20 stress cracks on from the bare k itself to the ripped upper shock tower mounts.
But its not a must do for everyone but I can see the heavier M crowd doing the upgrade more then the lighter F crowd.
Its easier today then ever to do the swap, no motor mount worries with the ones we can buy off the shelf. No searching for headers, off the shelf work. The 727 is nearly the same. Oem BB oil pan can work. Swap the power booster, make sure you have a good cooling system and just drive.
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
I did my RB swap in the 80s and it was a street strip car on day one, big cam 4500 stall converter and 4.10 gears that's as mild as my Volare has been. If I was to do a swap in an Fbody today starting from scratch i'd go gen 3 with a turbo..without question. Weight power reliability and driveability it wins. On the other side if I was building a street strip car today it would not be a Fbody.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
JMO, the front suspension on my car is plenty stiff with stock t-bars plus an iron head RB, 727, battery in stock location, and A/C with KYB Gas-Adjust's. You feel every expansion joint. Sometime's, it'd almost be nice of it was a little less firm to be honest.
I’m still in parts gathering mode. my money tree just hasn’t produced good crops the last few years.
The K-frames will be reinforced, re-welded then stress relieved, before powder coating. I’m also thinking about welding on a thick skid plate (somewhat like what older Hemi’s used).
For strip racing, I agree, soft torsion bars and small (or no) sway bars so you can get maximum weight transfer from front to rear.
I might go to the strip (once) just to get an idea of how car runs, but I really want to take my cars to do track racing (a few times). The track racing will need stronger torsion and sway bars.
For a normal “weekend” performance car like what OP is wanting to with his Imperial, I do believe he will be fine with stock torsion bars. He might want to get bigger sway bars (front and rear), possibly.
Personally, I would highly recommend going with as much aluminum big block parts as $ permits. (intake manifold, cylinder heads, water pump and water pump housing) – for then the weight factor will be close to existing small block (not measured but guess it to be about the same).
Also, aluminum intake and cylinder heads flow so much better than the iron parts do – so it is a win-win.
If I had an imperial, I would make sure it was fuel injected using one of the modern aftermarket 4-bbl appearing fuel injection setups – but I can’t speak for the OP’s intent. It would still need electrical modifications to get the cluster to function correctly, though. After all, the labels on side of car says its “Fuel Injected”, hehe.
Going back to what OldIron440, a gen 3 Hemi might be a all in all better way to go, but the costs involved to do so is just so high and amount of modifications to make it fit is too much for me. The big block would be a quicker swap.
My wife’s minivan has a 4.0L V-6 (bored/stroked version of the Chrysler 3.5L). I think it would be fun to install the transmission and electronics (including ABS, etc..) from a 3.5L Charger/300 and a Caravan 4.0L engine into an FMJ. It would get decent mileage, great drivability and decent power. The down side is costs and all the work needed to perform all of that.
Another dream I have is to make molds of the Long Ram intakes I have hanging in my garage. Then taking the mold and modifying the casting so it has “long”, “short” and “really short” runners (plastic intake), much like what intake manifolds made in last 15 years perform. The problem is the original long ram intakes will not fit onto an FMJ vehicle without massive modifications to the inner fenders and fender braces. I would think having a tuned and adjustable runner intake manifold on a dual fuel injected big block would be blast to drive.
While I'm dreaming, I'd also like to squeeze these under the hood, as well (Max Wedge exhaust manifold) – but, again, I don’t see that happening on an FMJ. I happen to have a pair of these on the garage wall as well (repops).
BudW
The K-frames will be reinforced, re-welded then stress relieved, before powder coating. I’m also thinking about welding on a thick skid plate (somewhat like what older Hemi’s used).
For strip racing, I agree, soft torsion bars and small (or no) sway bars so you can get maximum weight transfer from front to rear.
I might go to the strip (once) just to get an idea of how car runs, but I really want to take my cars to do track racing (a few times). The track racing will need stronger torsion and sway bars.
For a normal “weekend” performance car like what OP is wanting to with his Imperial, I do believe he will be fine with stock torsion bars. He might want to get bigger sway bars (front and rear), possibly.
Personally, I would highly recommend going with as much aluminum big block parts as $ permits. (intake manifold, cylinder heads, water pump and water pump housing) – for then the weight factor will be close to existing small block (not measured but guess it to be about the same).
Also, aluminum intake and cylinder heads flow so much better than the iron parts do – so it is a win-win.
If I had an imperial, I would make sure it was fuel injected using one of the modern aftermarket 4-bbl appearing fuel injection setups – but I can’t speak for the OP’s intent. It would still need electrical modifications to get the cluster to function correctly, though. After all, the labels on side of car says its “Fuel Injected”, hehe.
Going back to what OldIron440, a gen 3 Hemi might be a all in all better way to go, but the costs involved to do so is just so high and amount of modifications to make it fit is too much for me. The big block would be a quicker swap.
My wife’s minivan has a 4.0L V-6 (bored/stroked version of the Chrysler 3.5L). I think it would be fun to install the transmission and electronics (including ABS, etc..) from a 3.5L Charger/300 and a Caravan 4.0L engine into an FMJ. It would get decent mileage, great drivability and decent power. The down side is costs and all the work needed to perform all of that.
Another dream I have is to make molds of the Long Ram intakes I have hanging in my garage. Then taking the mold and modifying the casting so it has “long”, “short” and “really short” runners (plastic intake), much like what intake manifolds made in last 15 years perform. The problem is the original long ram intakes will not fit onto an FMJ vehicle without massive modifications to the inner fenders and fender braces. I would think having a tuned and adjustable runner intake manifold on a dual fuel injected big block would be blast to drive.
While I'm dreaming, I'd also like to squeeze these under the hood, as well (Max Wedge exhaust manifold) – but, again, I don’t see that happening on an FMJ. I happen to have a pair of these on the garage wall as well (repops).
BudW
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
I think the Lt HP manifold would require firewall surgery but maybe not.
MiradaMegacab
Well-Known Member
Is a K car power brake booster a direct bolt in swap into a FMJ?
Any modifications needed?
Can the FMJ’s original master cylinder be used?
Thanks
Any modifications needed?
Can the FMJ’s original master cylinder be used?
Thanks
There are two different versions of K-car boosters (pretty much all Chrysler Front Wheel Drive cars made in the ‘80’s – except for L-body (Omni/Horizon) which most things are slightly different on).
The single and dual diaphragm boosters:
The singles were mostly used on carbureted/injected cars and dual’s on turbocharged cars (but that is not a 100% rule – and seen them both ways).
The diameter on both is much less than FMJ booster. The dual booster is smaller still (and much smaller overall than the B/C body dual diaphragm or pickup dual booster design).
The length is a hair shorter on single and not quite double on the dual.
The bolt hole locations are the same on both ends and all share the same check valve.
The K-car provides slightly less power assist than FMJ and dual booster provides a bit more power assist than FMJ. I think the FMJ booster is over-boosted as is (IMO). I haven't heard anyone complain or mention anything about the amount of power assist after conversion.
The difference is the K-car booster uses metric threads. Most of the boosters I’ve ran across, came with new nuts – so on worry there. Just don’t use SAE nuts on metric threads (or vice versa)!
In most cases – no. Sometimes you might need to take a small round file and to clean out a firewall stud hole – but I’ve found that not necessary. If it doesn’t smoothly push it, then just push a tad harder and it goes right in. The same thing applies to FMJ boosters, as well. Sometimes the firewall holes and the brake bracket under dash holes don’t line up exactly – but a semi-firm push remedy’s that.
The K-car master cylinder is almost the same, between the different carlines. The only difference is the diameter of the master cylinder piston. If you use an aluminum FMJ master cylinder – you are good.
If you have an earlier F or M body with the cast iron master cylinder, I would encourage replacing it with the newer aluminum FMJ master cylinder and save 20 pounds(?) in the process.
If you have an older FM cast iron master cylinder and you insist on reusing it, the only other option is to either go manual brakes (non-power assist) or find a B/C-body or pickup dual booster with a 4-bolt master cylinder – and some of those are hard to find. The K-car booster is smaller and the better way to go, IMO.
BudW
FMJ booster
K-car single booster
Dual booster
Cast iron 4-bolt master cylinder
Aluminum master cylinder (same for most all Chrysler '80 and up, except for bore diameter)
Note: the top tank can vary in color - but all will interchange. They will pop off with a screwdriver.
Edit: Before install, make sure the bolt that goes through the booster rod fits fine.
I have seen three different bolt styles used on FMJ's.
One uses a bolt have an O-ring grove cut into it to prevent metal on metal rattle (a good idea to change the O-ring while bolt is out).
Another design us a more normal bolt and it uses grease to prevent a rattle noise.
The last design (most popular one) uses thin plastic bushings between the bolt and booster arm.
Whichever design bolt you have, be sure to apply some grease there and wipe up the excess.
The bushing - if missing, can sometimes be found a better stocked hardware stores.
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Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I believe they went to the 2 bolt aluminum master in '79 (at least on F-body anyways). That's what's on my car but alas, it never had power brakes. The car stops fine, you just need to apply a crap load of pressure to the pedal if you need to stop fast. My old '81 D150 had manual brakes also and to make a "panic stop" with that, the procedure was to use BOTH feet on the pedal.
Way back in '89 when doing the original BB swap on a tight (meaning no) budget, I had a set of hi-po 440 manifolds (not Max-Wedge) and the drivers side would have exited inside the car, right on top of my right foot. The left side exited dead nuts on top of the subframe rail. They were the manifolds on the donor engine, which came out of a rotted to the door handles '71 Roadrunner at the bone yard. Settled for standard passenger car manifolds instead, not really ideal but they were free. Headers weren't an option, they were only a dream, lol.
I wonder about the Max Wedge manifolds. A buddy had a '68 Barracuda fatsback with a 440 swapped in by who know's who, and it had the Max Wedge manifolds, and they fit that car just fine, IIRC. That was like 1983 so, if there were any mods, I can't remember them anymore. Slightly amusing story about that car. My buddy traded his '71 VW Super Beetle straight up for the 98% rust free Barracuda. Of course he went from 40 mpg to 10 mpg but, what the hell!
Way back in '89 when doing the original BB swap on a tight (meaning no) budget, I had a set of hi-po 440 manifolds (not Max-Wedge) and the drivers side would have exited inside the car, right on top of my right foot. The left side exited dead nuts on top of the subframe rail. They were the manifolds on the donor engine, which came out of a rotted to the door handles '71 Roadrunner at the bone yard. Settled for standard passenger car manifolds instead, not really ideal but they were free. Headers weren't an option, they were only a dream, lol.
I wonder about the Max Wedge manifolds. A buddy had a '68 Barracuda fatsback with a 440 swapped in by who know's who, and it had the Max Wedge manifolds, and they fit that car just fine, IIRC. That was like 1983 so, if there were any mods, I can't remember them anymore. Slightly amusing story about that car. My buddy traded his '71 VW Super Beetle straight up for the 98% rust free Barracuda. Of course he went from 40 mpg to 10 mpg but, what the hell!
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Feeling every crack in the road is a function of those awful shocks and not the springs. I should know since I ran them on all four corners prior to upgrading the torsion bars. I've got another front set you can have if you want.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
Maybe the KYB's are too "stiff"? My car, front AND rear, feels stiffer than it seems it would be. Stock t-bars up front and 4 leaf springs in the rear. I guess it doesn't really bother me that much but it does feel awfully firm.
I've got a "road video" that you can sort of see what I mean. If I can ever get the darn thing uploaded to You-Tube, I'll post it. It was basically a test video that I never intended to upload, which is why it starts and stops so abruptly. It was last September and on a short stretch of the drive home from work, with about 2 miles left to go (and home, finally). You can kind of "feel" what I mean, especially going onto and off the bridge over the Interstate. They've since fixed the bumps, or I should say made them less severe.
I've got a "road video" that you can sort of see what I mean. If I can ever get the darn thing uploaded to You-Tube, I'll post it. It was basically a test video that I never intended to upload, which is why it starts and stops so abruptly. It was last September and on a short stretch of the drive home from work, with about 2 miles left to go (and home, finally). You can kind of "feel" what I mean, especially going onto and off the bridge over the Interstate. They've since fixed the bumps, or I should say made them less severe.
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The rebound dampening on those KYB shocks is horrible. That's why you feel every crack in the road. Better shocks can be stiffer still, but do a much better job dampening small bumps. If you're unhappy, toss a set of Bilstien in the front. You won't be disappointed.
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
I may try that, Duke. Part of it may be age (mine, not the cars). What was just fine 20 years ago, feels too rough now and having it ride somewhat smoother would make driving the car more enjoyable, not that I don't love driving it now that is!
I'll have to weigh the cost vs how much the ride bothers me. Those Bilstien's aren't cheap but like most things, if you want good, you have to pay the extra price. Too bad they don't have them for the rear also.
I'll have to weigh the cost vs how much the ride bothers me. Those Bilstien's aren't cheap but like most things, if you want good, you have to pay the extra price. Too bad they don't have them for the rear also.
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XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Many are happy with the KYB shocks. Just like you wobble feeling I thing maybe to much seat time in the Mustang and the modern norms then going back in the 40 year old time machine blurs the lines. Id also add the BFG tires dont help in the big picture but from the vid things dont look bad. Id think its almost more the tire choice then shock.
I recall how well my 77 Coupe Deville? drove and rode as a big motor luxury car and putting that in context with what was a competitor with the Nova and other disposable crap boxes. I will try to post a vid of my 440-f as I had just normal shocks and although I forget the tire brand they were not BFG thumpers and I dont recall it having the same bumps and thumps.
I recall how well my 77 Coupe Deville? drove and rode as a big motor luxury car and putting that in context with what was a competitor with the Nova and other disposable crap boxes. I will try to post a vid of my 440-f as I had just normal shocks and although I forget the tire brand they were not BFG thumpers and I dont recall it having the same bumps and thumps.
jasperjacko
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I agree, the kybs are like driving a truck. I bought them because they claim to be "engineered" for each vehicle.... Bull. Did some part look up, and they have the same part number for my car, as they did my 76 440 royal Monaco that weighs at least a 1000 lbs more. the other complaint I have is the pressure in the shocks is SO high that it raised the ride ht. 1"! That's nuts!
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
Previous to the "big build", the car rode much smoother. Of course, that was with the original bushings, joints, rear springs, etc. All it had were standard replacement shocks from the parts store. I mean, it at least had some give to it. XbodyX, you may be partially right about the time machine thing too. Goes along with always thinking the car wanders too much but in reality, it's way better than it ever was brand new. Just get used to driving modern rack and pinion design steering and suspension. Thing is, my truck rides smoother than the Aspen does. As I mentioned, getting older means being more concerned with comfort than all out handling or power and bare bones, stripped down performance. Wish it wasn't true, but it is.
At any rate, just to see what happens, more as a test than anything, I'm going to get a set of regular Monroe shocks to bolt on and see how they are. If they're OK, I'll leave them. If not, it's only a $35 test vs $400 for a front pair of Bilstien's. (At least that's what it said on the FF site). Most likely I'll change the rear shocks also to the Monroe's. It'll be a lot less expensive than some of my other experiments over the past 5 or 6 years (cams, torque converters, etc).
At any rate, just to see what happens, more as a test than anything, I'm going to get a set of regular Monroe shocks to bolt on and see how they are. If they're OK, I'll leave them. If not, it's only a $35 test vs $400 for a front pair of Bilstien's. (At least that's what it said on the FF site). Most likely I'll change the rear shocks also to the Monroe's. It'll be a lot less expensive than some of my other experiments over the past 5 or 6 years (cams, torque converters, etc).
Oldiron440
Well-Known Member
When you rebuild the suspension did you use polyurethane bushings?Previous to the "big build", the car rode much smoother. Of course, that was with the original bushings, joints, rear springs, etc. All it had were standard replacement shocks from the parts store. I mean, it at least had some give to it. XbodyX, you may be partially right about the time machine thing too. Goes along with always thinking the car wanders too much but in reality, it's way better than it ever was brand new. Just get used to driving modern rack and pinion design steering and suspension. Thing is, my truck rides smoother than the Aspen does. As I mentioned, getting older means being more concerned with comfort than all out handling or power and bare bones, stripped down performance. Wish it wasn't true, but it is.
At any rate, just to see what happens, more as a test than anything, I'm going to get a set of regular Monroe shocks to bolt on and see how they are. If they're OK, I'll leave them. If not, it's only a $35 test vs $400 for a front pair of Bilstien's. (At least that's what it said on the FF site). Most likely I'll change the rear shocks also to the Monroe's. It'll be a lot less expensive than some of my other experiments over the past 5 or 6 years (cams, torque converters, etc).
