Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Someday Captain, I will bring you over to the dark side.
Sorry Sir.
Won't happen with me. I've talked to far too many engine guys who told me flat out not to use synthetic in these cars.
Synthetic Oil in 1987 5th Ave with 37K original miles?
- Thread starter chaffin67
- Start date
Sorry Sir.
Won't happen with me. I've talked to far too many engine guys who told me flat out not to use synthetic in these cars.
kkritsilas
Well-Known Member
Darth-Car:
When the majority of our cars were designed to have relatively high amounts of phosphorus (in the form of ZDDP) in their oil. Not because I want them to, not because it is an opinion, but because ALL oils that were around when our cars were built (and when the engines were originally designed) had relatively high levels of ZDDP. It was a standard part of the additive package used in all motor oils of the day (conventional or synthetic, Penzoil, Mobile 1, Ansoil, Valvoline, ALL). What has happened is that the API, in response to the reported poisoning of catalytic converters has reduced the amount of ZDDP/phosphorus to the point where the amount of ZDDP/phosphorus is below the minimum amount that the majority of the engines in our cars (meaning all flat tappet engines, not the roller tappet engines) are designed to have in their oils. The key issue is not conventional vs. synthetic, it is whether or not the oil has the adequate level of ZDDP.
See this article from Wikipeida:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
From that article, in the Standards section, American Petroleum Institute (API) subsection:
All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP). Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus and zinc limits, and thus has created a controversial issue of obsolescent oils needed for older engines, especially engines with sliding (flat/cleave) tappets. API, and ILSAC, which represents most of the worlds major automobile/engine manufactures, states API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. Not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "performance" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels. Most engines built before 1985 have the flat/cleave bearing style systems of construction, which is sensitive to reducing zinc and phosphorus. Example; in API SG rated oils, this was at the 1200-1300 ppm level for zinc and phosphorus, where the current SM is under 600 ppm. This reduction in anti-wear chemicals in oil has caused premature failures of camshafts and other high pressure bearings in many older automobiles and has been blamed for pre-mature failure of the oil pump drive/cam position sensor gear that is meshed with camshaft gear in some modern engines.
There are three diesel engine service designations which are current: CJ-4, CI-4, and CH-4. Some manufacturers continue to use obsolete designations such as CC for small or stationary diesel engines. In addition, API created a separated CI-4 PLUS designation in conjunction with CJ-4 and CI-4 for oils that meet certain extra requirements, and this marking is located in the lower portion of the API Service Symbol "Donut"."
There are a lot of good oils out there, including Amsoil. The question is not the quality of the oil, but whether the oil that meets current API specifications also has adequate levels of ZDDP for our older cars. If an oil is made to meet the current API specification (SN), IT CANNOT HAVE ADEQUATE LEVELS OF ZDDP FOR FLAT LIFTER ENGINES. THe API SN specification DOES NOT ALLOW IT. This is why the need tor conventional oils, and specifically Lucas Oil's "HOT ROD OIL", or Rotella T conventional oil. If you can convince AMSOIL to create a synthetic oil with high levels of ZDDP (which by extension, means that it cannot be used for modern cars, due to its poisoning of the catalytic converters, and not meeting new car warranty requirements), then I would be willing to try it. However, until such time as this comes about, Rotella T conventional is it.
Also, before you come on here with a sales pitch, I suggest you read the HOT ROD article that I previously linked to.
And just for the record, I use AMSOIL in my daily driver (a 2006 Monte Carlo SS). I use WIX filters. I use the synthetic oil because that is what the owner's manual calls for. Guess what? The owner's manual for my 3 J Bodies calls for oil that meets SE/SF standards. Those standards had high levels of ZDDP. The current SN grade does not. I choose to think that in both cases, the engineers who designed those engines knew that they were talking about. I have full confidence in that.
When the majority of our cars were designed to have relatively high amounts of phosphorus (in the form of ZDDP) in their oil. Not because I want them to, not because it is an opinion, but because ALL oils that were around when our cars were built (and when the engines were originally designed) had relatively high levels of ZDDP. It was a standard part of the additive package used in all motor oils of the day (conventional or synthetic, Penzoil, Mobile 1, Ansoil, Valvoline, ALL). What has happened is that the API, in response to the reported poisoning of catalytic converters has reduced the amount of ZDDP/phosphorus to the point where the amount of ZDDP/phosphorus is below the minimum amount that the majority of the engines in our cars (meaning all flat tappet engines, not the roller tappet engines) are designed to have in their oils. The key issue is not conventional vs. synthetic, it is whether or not the oil has the adequate level of ZDDP.
See this article from Wikipeida:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
From that article, in the Standards section, American Petroleum Institute (API) subsection:
All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP). Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus and zinc limits, and thus has created a controversial issue of obsolescent oils needed for older engines, especially engines with sliding (flat/cleave) tappets. API, and ILSAC, which represents most of the worlds major automobile/engine manufactures, states API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. Not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "performance" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels. Most engines built before 1985 have the flat/cleave bearing style systems of construction, which is sensitive to reducing zinc and phosphorus. Example; in API SG rated oils, this was at the 1200-1300 ppm level for zinc and phosphorus, where the current SM is under 600 ppm. This reduction in anti-wear chemicals in oil has caused premature failures of camshafts and other high pressure bearings in many older automobiles and has been blamed for pre-mature failure of the oil pump drive/cam position sensor gear that is meshed with camshaft gear in some modern engines.
There are three diesel engine service designations which are current: CJ-4, CI-4, and CH-4. Some manufacturers continue to use obsolete designations such as CC for small or stationary diesel engines. In addition, API created a separated CI-4 PLUS designation in conjunction with CJ-4 and CI-4 for oils that meet certain extra requirements, and this marking is located in the lower portion of the API Service Symbol "Donut"."
There are a lot of good oils out there, including Amsoil. The question is not the quality of the oil, but whether the oil that meets current API specifications also has adequate levels of ZDDP for our older cars. If an oil is made to meet the current API specification (SN), IT CANNOT HAVE ADEQUATE LEVELS OF ZDDP FOR FLAT LIFTER ENGINES. THe API SN specification DOES NOT ALLOW IT. This is why the need tor conventional oils, and specifically Lucas Oil's "HOT ROD OIL", or Rotella T conventional oil. If you can convince AMSOIL to create a synthetic oil with high levels of ZDDP (which by extension, means that it cannot be used for modern cars, due to its poisoning of the catalytic converters, and not meeting new car warranty requirements), then I would be willing to try it. However, until such time as this comes about, Rotella T conventional is it.
Also, before you come on here with a sales pitch, I suggest you read the HOT ROD article that I previously linked to.
And just for the record, I use AMSOIL in my daily driver (a 2006 Monte Carlo SS). I use WIX filters. I use the synthetic oil because that is what the owner's manual calls for. Guess what? The owner's manual for my 3 J Bodies calls for oil that meets SE/SF standards. Those standards had high levels of ZDDP. The current SN grade does not. I choose to think that in both cases, the engineers who designed those engines knew that they were talking about. I have full confidence in that.
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Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Leaded motors and non leaded motors are different animals.
If I had a leaded motor, I'd be running Z-Alt.
But then again the experts say I don't need that for my 77-89 Chryslers I own.
Try a Baldwin filter and you'll place Wix closer to Fram quality.
If I had a leaded motor, I'd be running Z-Alt.
But then again the experts say I don't need that for my 77-89 Chryslers I own.
Try a Baldwin filter and you'll place Wix closer to Fram quality.
kkritsilas
Well-Known Member
Dr., which experts would the be? The only genuine experts that I would place complete trust in would be the designers of the engines, and I take their directions as gospel. There may be other "experts" out there, but unless they have had a hand in the design of the engines in our cars, I would be less inclined to listen to them.
I'm not hung up over the way the lack of ZDDP is addressed, just that people who own our cars are aware of the issue. Even if they choose to not add ZDDP , it is their car, and their choice. And bottom line is, they are paying for everything
I have heard of Baldwin filters, and nothing but good things. I just haven't been able to find anyplace to buy them.
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Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Dick Edlebrock might know just a little bit about motors.
Then when a guy like Herb 'Mr 4 Speed' McCandeless harps the same thing with the choice of oil/filter, I'll go with their advice.
They have motors worth more than one of my cars.
Neither makes money off Baldwin and when a guy like Herb-who bleeds Mopar laughs at Mopar filters, again I'll listen.
Now if you are talking leaded motors, then you absolutely need 'muscle car' oil like Z-Alt.
Then when a guy like Herb 'Mr 4 Speed' McCandeless harps the same thing with the choice of oil/filter, I'll go with their advice.
They have motors worth more than one of my cars.
Neither makes money off Baldwin and when a guy like Herb-who bleeds Mopar laughs at Mopar filters, again I'll listen.
Now if you are talking leaded motors, then you absolutely need 'muscle car' oil like Z-Alt.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
I finally found a place by me to get Baldwin's so I'll pick some up after I go through my case of Mopars. I don't really have a problem with using the Mopar ones for now just cause they're made in the USA. Wix on the other have l hand I heard are now made in china....no thanks. Also read a story about one letting go and a freshly rebuilt engine eating one.
As far as oil goes. I'm with the Doc and every engine guy I know who I believe knows these engines. They've told me flat out. Do not use synthetic in these cars. I'll take their word on that. Good ol conventional 10W 30 for me. As far as the zinc goes. I'd consider it for my flat tappet slants.....although after 200,000 clicks each I don't know if I need to.....especially at the HP they're putting out. And my 318 is a roller so I'm not that worried about that one. If I do my 225 SSS idea on the Caravelle with a new cam and the 4bbl she'll definitely be getting some zinc in her diet.
As far as oil goes. I'm with the Doc and every engine guy I know who I believe knows these engines. They've told me flat out. Do not use synthetic in these cars. I'll take their word on that. Good ol conventional 10W 30 for me. As far as the zinc goes. I'd consider it for my flat tappet slants.....although after 200,000 clicks each I don't know if I need to.....especially at the HP they're putting out. And my 318 is a roller so I'm not that worried about that one. If I do my 225 SSS idea on the Caravelle with a new cam and the 4bbl she'll definitely be getting some zinc in her diet.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/
1400 OConnor Drive Toronto (East York) Ontario M4B 2T8
Close to you for Baldwin filters.
Since everything I own takes the same filter, I just buy a case. of B233 filters.
1400 OConnor Drive Toronto (East York) Ontario M4B 2T8
Close to you for Baldwin filters.
Since everything I own takes the same filter, I just buy a case. of B233 filters.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
That's exactly the place I found them. Thanks Doc!
kkritsilas
Well-Known Member
Dr. Lebaron:
Found the filter for the J bodies, no part for my daily driver. Thanks for the link.
Found the filter for the J bodies, no part for my daily driver. Thanks for the link.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Nice thing about Mopars, the filters work on slant 6 or 318.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Last time I bought a case, it was their last one in stock.
So for a time I was London's largest supplier of Baldwin B233 filters.
So for a time I was London's largest supplier of Baldwin B233 filters.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Lol.....I guess I better pre order.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
I'm sure I just cleaned out that warehouse on that day.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
I'll just call ahead. I've still got half a case of Mopar ones.
Used to run only synthetics in all my cars, but that was yrs ago. Cam2 20-50 racing oil. High zinc content and with the 100 degree heat down here plenty o protection. Sunoco stopped selling in NAPA where I procured. Now.. whatever oil is on sale, and add some STP. FIVE HUNDRED FORTY THOUSAND MILES and I get a tiny puff of smoke *sometimes* when I first fire up. Down a quart in ~ 4k miles. I run the bat-shit outa Betsy... shift/down shift at 5-6g often times. . . I have some slight buildup in the valve cover but no problems, have only changed the timing chain out at 450,000 because I thought it prudent... Some of you watched my valve adjust video, not bad for half a million... ;-)
ramenth
Well-Known Member
"Flat out don't use synthetics...." But has anyone taken the time to explain why?
I use synthetics in everything. I think I've had my hands in more than a few engines, from daily drivers to flat out haul ass engines. VR1 in everything with a flat tappet cam, Mobil 1 in the Hyundai, and Max Life full synth in the F150.
I use synthetics in everything. I think I've had my hands in more than a few engines, from daily drivers to flat out haul ass engines. VR1 in everything with a flat tappet cam, Mobil 1 in the Hyundai, and Max Life full synth in the F150.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Any additional light you can shed on this is appreciated Robert.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Modern engines get synthetic.
But instead running synthetic in my 1979 /6 w 93,000 miles or any of my 77-89 318's, I'll go what the engine gurus tell me and use dinosaur.
NOT ONE of the gurus ever said synthetic, not a one.
But instead running synthetic in my 1979 /6 w 93,000 miles or any of my 77-89 318's, I'll go what the engine gurus tell me and use dinosaur.
NOT ONE of the gurus ever said synthetic, not a one.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Besides Dick Edlebrock, Herb 'Mr 4 Speed' McCandeless, local Hemi god Jessie 'Hemi' Gomes and couple other names-
Rob Atchison, 3 time NHRA champ and I have one of his 318's
http://www.atchisonracing.com/
OR
9 time NHRA world champion Frank Hawley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Hawley
I'll take these guy's advice
Rob Atchison, 3 time NHRA champ and I have one of his 318's
http://www.atchisonracing.com/
OR
9 time NHRA world champion Frank Hawley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Hawley
I'll take these guy's advice
