Synthetic Oil in 1987 5th Ave with 37K original miles?

Dr Lebaron

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LOL, just looked at my /6 Lebaron records and there's been 4 oil changes in 2100 miles.
Don't think anything in the oil broke down between changes
 

Jack Meoff

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Just for clarification on this example:
Early- to mid-1980s 305s were notorious for soft cams. Most wiped right at or around 120,000 miles. They were just bad cams. My Dad had an '84 Delta 88 with an L69 H.O. transplanted into it (don't ask). I was at college in the fall of '89 when he called me and said he was thinking of trading it in, even though he loved the car. It had developed a tick and didn't have the "zip" (his term) it once had. I asked him the mileage, and he told me 121,000. I said, "The cam is wiped. The car isn't worth the cost of the repairs," since he couldn't do the work himself. He traded it in on a new Delta. Anyone working in the auto service industry in the '80s should remember the 305's cam issues. I was 19 and a Mopar guy and I knew about it. It was very common, and it didn't matter what oil you used. Ain't a one of 'em ever made 150K miles with all its lobes.

And what would your choices be for my engines Sir?
 

NoCar340

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Oh, man... you let it go that long?! For shame. Get out there and change it! :D
 

NoCar340

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And what would your choices be for my engines Sir?
It sounds to me like you've got something that's working well for you. Unless you feel compelled to change for some reason, I don't see a reason to do so.

Now that I'm working at a CarQuest I'll probably use Baldwin filters just for ease of access, though the Fleetguard is a little better. I run Royal Purple in everything, but it's probably overkill on the Dakota. I just hate having two or three different oils around, and my project engines tend to run to the expensive side so I want maximum protection for them...

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You can't just throw any old small-block in a '61 Plymouth Suburban, y'know. ;)
 

Jack Meoff

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It sounds to me like you've got something that's working well for you. Unless you feel compelled to change for some reason, I don't see a reason to do so.

Now that I'm working at a CarQuest I'll probably use Baldwin filters just for ease of access, though the Fleetguard is a little better. I run Royal Purple in everything, but it's probably overkill on the Dakota. I just hate having two or three different oils around, and my project engines tend to run to the expensive side so I want maximum protection for them...

View attachment 12397

You can't just throw any old small-block in a '61 Plymouth Suburban, y'know. ;)

Thank you.
I seem to be doing okay with the Quaker State so what the hell. I've always pondered whether to add some zinc to the slants though.
 

kkritsilas

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Mobil 1 is synthetic. You're mistaking Mobil 1 with Mobil Super and Mobil 5000. If it's labeled Mobil 1 it's synthetic.

VR1 has the necessary ZDDP content. So does Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Amsoil. Amsoil was one of the first synth's and has been around for decades. My old man ran it in his flat heads. Yeah, you read that right: in his flat heads and you really can't get much older than that.

I've never rebuilt an engine because of a wiped cam and lack of zinc. I have, though, rebuilt plenty of engines due to oil sludging, usually caused by high paraffin bases, improper maintenance, a lack of warm up times as well as those that have been run hard and put away wet. Stuck chokes that cause bearing wash with all that gas wiping the oil off the cylinders and getting into the oil pan where it's pumped through the engine (talk about wiping a cam... have the pump push diluted gas all over the lobes) Getting back into engines from the 50's and the 60's I've rebuilt a lot of engines because of people running HD's and then switching to ND's and back and forth. A 392 Hemi that had absolutely no oil going to the valve train because of it.

Speaking of switch back and forth, one of the worst things you can do to your engine is switch out your oil. Each of the oil refiners has it's own base formula to start with. Many of them put a "glaze" on the machine surfaces that doesn't necessarily play well with other oils. Switching every time your local retailer has a package deal doesn't help and can actually lead to the sludging I'm talking about.

Wiped lobes usually happen within the first thousand or so miles and has more to do with inexperienced builders not knowing how to break in the cam and a lack of break in lube or they don't know how to get it to fire immediately and grind on it until it does. Wiped lobe.

I gotta admit, I didn't read the article from Hot Rod or the Wiki link. Didn't need to. Got experience on my side as to what works and what doesn't. Been doing it for a great many years and learned from a man who cut his teeth hot rodding engines since he was fourteen (he's 74 now, if that means anything).

The thing is this: how many of our cars are used as dailies vs used as summer rides. Synths work in doing a lot of things: they are better at combating friction, they work in coating machine surfaces better which serves its purpose in long storage, especially in non-climate controlled storage.

Even then, if you do use your car as a daily and only for short hops synths work better against sludging. They also work better against carbon build ups (better friction wicking).

By the way, most of you do realize that "synth" are just oils that are more refined than "conventionals" right? To break it down think of three stages of refinement: "conventional" is the most rudimentary refinement, with a few additives, "synth blends" have been refined more with a few more additives, with "synthetics" being refined even further with even more additives. Many people are under the mistaken belief that "synthetics" don't come from the same barrel of oil as "conventionals." It all starts from the same barrel of crude.

By specification, any oil, synthetic, conventional, blend, if it carries an API starndard of SH or newer DOES NOT HAVE THE ZDDP content that our engines were designed to run on. Period end of sentence. Articles posted have stated that the specifications themselves DO NOT ALLOW IT. Any oil that has the ZDDP content of oils up to standard SG will not get the SH or better rating. Read the articles to understand why, and yes, you did need to read it. Your experience is your experience, however neither Wikipedia nor HOT ROD derive any benefit from explaining the reduction in ZDDP. They both DO state the reduction in ZDDP has occurred, and both offer the exact same reason why it has been reduced. As vast as your experience is, and that of your mentor's I sincerely doubt that you can look at an oil sample and determine that it had adequate levels of ZDDP, or whether it is SE, SF,SG, SH, or any other standard of oil. You can probably tell if it a heavy oil. or a lighter one, and possibly if it a converntional or synthetic, but that is about all of it.

As for yours, or anybody's experience, it is at best, limited. The only real authorities that can say what oil to use are the designers of the engines, who are more familiar with the lubrication requirements of their engine designs than anybody, no matter how vast their experience is. Amybody who deviates from that is doing on the basis of guesses at best. Nobody else understands the exact details of what the metallurgy, clearances, expected temperatures inside the engines will be than they do. And they are very, very clear on what oil to use, and tell you straight up, in the owner's manual. And in my manual, it says to use SE/SF, and when it comes out SG grade oil. Guess what, all of those oils have approximately the same amount of ZDDP. Guess what started to happen when the SH grade came out?

My reasoning in choosing oil is very simple: Follow the owner's manual. No guessing, no vast amounts of exprience, no second guessing the design engineers. Just plain and simple: Follow the guitdelines in the owner's manul. If the manual says synthetic, I use synthetic; if it is from the 1980s and says use SE/SF/SG, I will use an oil that is closest to that. Change filter at every oil change. WIX (actually WIX XP) for tne 2006 Monte Carlo SS (manual says use synthetic, so I use synthetic), high ZDDP conventional oil for the J bodies, was WIX for the J bodies, will be Baldwin next time I buy filters.
 
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kkritsilas

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Okay.....just to throw this out there.
I have two bone stock flat tappet slants and a roller 318. If they were yours what oil would you run in each?

Some sort of high ZDDP content conventional in the slants. Anything (conventional or synthetic) for the roller 318; with the roller lifters, it doesn't have the sliding friction issue that the flat tappets do. However, you may want to account for cost; there will not be any benefit to the engine with synthetics, but they do cost more. Use a good quality oil filter that you have confidence in every oil change, and you are good to go.
 

kkritsilas

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Just for clarification on this example:
Early- to mid-1980s 305s were notorious for soft cams. Most wiped right at or around 120,000 miles. They were just bad cams. My Dad had an '84 Delta 88 with an L69 H.O. transplanted into it (don't ask). I was at college in the fall of '89 when he called me and said he was thinking of trading it in, even though he loved the car. It had developed a tick and didn't have the "zip" (his term) it once had. I asked him the mileage, and he told me 121,000. I said, "The cam is wiped. The car isn't worth the cost of the repairs," since he couldn't do the work himself. He traded it in on a new Delta. Anyone working in the auto service industry in the '80s should remember the 305's cam issues. I was 19 and a Mopar guy and I knew about it. It was very common, and it didn't matter what oil you used. Ain't a one of 'em ever made 150K miles with all its lobes.

For those who are interested, there is an explanaiton for all of the cam lifter wear in the Hot Rod article I posed, there is even a picture of a wiped out lifter.
 

NoCar340

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It should be noted that Royal Purple, Joe Gibbs Driven and others offer multiple versions of their oils, including flat-tappet formulas with higher zinc and phosphate levels.
Also, in the 9 years since the Hot Rod article was posted, we've hit another tier of diesel emissions standards, and Shell Rotella no longer contains an adequate additive package for flat-tappet camshafts. The article does not explain the '80s 305 camshaft phenomenon whatsoever, since 350 camshafts of the same era (and indeed later 305s) have been seen to go beyond a quarter-million miles without failure. It was a situation unique to that engine, since no other manufacturer had similar issues. Hot Rod, of course, being an advertising-driven magazine, is going to recommend the latest pricey speed parts as a partial solution. Hydraulic roller cams offer virtually no performance gain, and in some cases an actual loss, compared to a flat-tappet grind of identical spec. This is not the case with solid rollers. If you're going to spend nearly 3 times as much on a cam and lifters because of wear concerns, then your decision is justified. If you're going to drop that kind of money because "gee whiz, it must make more power" then you're a fool. Lots of people falling into that trap, when an extra $5 per oil change on an additive solves the wear problem. That's a lot of oil changes before the cam pays for itself.
 

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I'm almost asared to get in here .. the only engine I blew was the one I was too broke to maintain properly .. food and roof were more important at the time .. lesson learned tho .. now it's changed at 5k or sooner, no matter what .. the turbo will get synthetic next change and conventional will go in the slant .. but after 5 pages I still don't know if that's best .. but I did find a nearby dealer with Baldwin filters, with the same part # for both vehicles. oh .. and I just got the slant so I don't know what been used .. but that sc(f)ram filter has to go!!
 

Dr Lebaron

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What oil and filter will vary with 110 yrs of motors.
If I had a Joe Gibbs engine, I'd go royal purple.
If I had a OBD2 and newer car, I'd go synthetic all the way.
77-89 carbed Mopars, I will take the advice given to me.

Glad some people have gone Baldwin filter though.
 

Darth-Car

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One cautionary note on filters, both Baldwin, and Wix are now bringing filters into the Western World from China. Check your filter packaging for Made in China before laying down your money. These imported filters have been found in cut-aways to be of inferior build quality.
 

Jack Meoff

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One cautionary note on filters, both Baldwin, and Wix are now bringing filters into the Western World from China. Check your filter packaging for Made in China before laying down your money. These imported filters have been found in cut-aways to be of inferior build quality.

I know Wix are. But Baldwin too?
 

Darth-Car

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Upon the Doctor's recommendation I tried a couple of Baldwins several years back. When I went back to the parts store for more, the fellow I know behind the counter showed me the evil Made in China lettering on the boxes, and said they had already had several complaints, and told me to go back to the Wix, since he still had U.S. stock on those.
 

Jack Meoff

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Upon the Doctor's recommendation I tried a couple of Baldwins several years back. When I went back to the parts store for more, the fellow I know behind the counter showed me the evil Made in China lettering on the boxes, and said they had already had several complaints, and told me to go back to the Wix, since he still had U.S. stock on those.

Umm.........
 

ramenth

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Okay.....just to throw this out there.
I have two bone stock flat tappet slants and a roller 318. If they were yours what oil would you run in each?

No doubt, I'd run full synthetic. Know why? Because it works. I don't have the internet articles to back me up, I don't have the "he said" to back me up, I've got the actual experience of building cars from the ground up (some of them worth six figures), of laying my own reputation on the line of knowing what works and what doesn't.

So to answer the first question, hell yeah, I'd run full synthetics in a 37,000 mile old '87 Fifth Avenue in a heart beat. Without looking back.
 

Jack Meoff

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No doubt, I'd run full synthetic. Know why? Because it works. I don't have the internet articles to back me up, I don't have the "he said" to back me up, I've got the actual experience of building cars from the ground up (some of them worth six figures), of laying my own reputation on the line of knowing what works and what doesn't.

So to answer the first question, hell yeah, I'd run full synthetics in a 37,000 mile old '87 Fifth Avenue in a heart beat. Without looking back.

Interesting.
Thank you Sir.
 

volareandgtcat

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Upon the Doctor's recommendation I tried a couple of Baldwins several years back. When I went back to the parts store for more, the fellow I know behind the counter showed me the evil Made in China lettering on the boxes, and said they had already had several complaints, and told me to go back to the Wix, since he still had U.S. stock on those.

Was hoping that only the box was Made in China ... I wonder if Hastings are still made here ?
 
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