Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Fram rhymes with scam.
Synthetic Oil in 1987 5th Ave with 37K original miles?
- Thread starter chaffin67
- Start date
Fram rhymes with scam.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
My last case of Baldwin was at $4.60 per filter, tax included.
Cheap price to pay for protection.
Cheap price to pay for protection.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Good price. That's about what I pay for the Mopar ones.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
As far as the original topic goes. I just don't see a feasible reason to change. Almost 220,000 miles without a single blip. Why rock the boat now? What real purpose would be served by it? If anything I might just piss it off.
Back in the day when I still ran dino oil, I had a brand new LeBaron 2.2 Turbo. I changed the oil every 3000 clicks with Mopar 10w30, and a fresh Mopar filter. The car was not abused in driving; no racing or tire scorching. The turbo died at 30,000. Chrysler paid for a new one. The service manager at my dealership was a friend, and he told me I needed to switch to 1500 mile oil changes, so I did. I got my next turbo from Ma Mopar at 60,000.
That was the recommended oil, and the time intervals were even exaggerated with the same results. As the Captain said, we will never know the final answer on any of this. Do the best you can with your car. That is the best advice. I would have loved to have tried Amsoil in the car, but it was long gone when I became a convert.
That was the recommended oil, and the time intervals were even exaggerated with the same results. As the Captain said, we will never know the final answer on any of this. Do the best you can with your car. That is the best advice. I would have loved to have tried Amsoil in the car, but it was long gone when I became a convert.
80mirada
Well-Known Member
The additive package in synthetics doesn't break down as fast as regular oil. That said most carbureted engines will contaminate the oil much faster than a modern EFI engine. Synthetic has had a bad rap thanks to some early synthetics being crap. Would I put it in and 87 Fifth Ave, or Diplomat? No. Would it hurt? No. As long as you have an oil appropriate for flat tappet use (ZDDP) is most important. Rotella on the other hand has very aggressive detergents in it and can cause problems with some gas engines.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ does some pretty impressive testing and evaluation on oils and I would take at least a lil stock in his work.... have read several articles from his website and I can only say, I mix my own concoctions now... and change at 3k or sooner, plus large capacity filter *ph8a* equivalent in a name brand (usually Bosch lately) and a healthy dolip of STP or Rislone X2 zinc. You guys are kinda all right in ways. There are drawbacks to most oils and this article addresses our Older rides http://classiccars.about.com/od/mai...-The-Urban-Legend-This-Motor-Oil-Additive.htm
Price is a major consideration in my world, so I buy decent crude based oil, or mixed and add my own zinc and it works OK for my wallet... thanks to all you guys for your insights, and experiences and it so does matter folks. Keep enriching each other with the things each have learned and we all benefit!
Price is a major consideration in my world, so I buy decent crude based oil, or mixed and add my own zinc and it works OK for my wallet... thanks to all you guys for your insights, and experiences and it so does matter folks. Keep enriching each other with the things each have learned and we all benefit!
My Chrysler Lazer (Daytona lookalike) had a plaque under the hood that said, "Chrysler Corporation and Carroll Shelby recommend Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil" right near the hood latch, and it also stated it was factory fill on the car. The original owner said, "Good enough for Carroll, good enough for me!" I bought the car with 192,000 miles on it. The turbo was original and the valve cover had never been off.
Ray Barton's Super Stock A Hemi engines are all run on Royal Purple 0W-10 oil (Racing 9, if memory serves). They get beat on all season, and when they come in at the end for freshening the bearings look brand new. Hot, that oil drains as fast as water would. Not one oil-based failure in 20+ years.
At my last job, my boss was obsessive about filtration. My main job for the first six months was filter research. I read more about filters than most people read about everything by the end of high school. Test specifications, SAE and other standards, temperatures, pressures, test fluids, particle size, mass and shape. The marketing, sales spiels, discount/kickback offers and outright bribes made me feel like a U.S. Senator for awhile there. Micron rating is bunk unless you know how it's achieved. Mind you, going into this I was a die-hard WIX guy for over 20 years.
Fram was never even considered but I looked into them anyhow (FYI, most non-diesel Mopar filters are made by Fram, but to Mopar's specification--relax, it's not the same filter). Hey, I was getting paid for it, so I went a little crazy. Here's what I learned: the bigger the marketing budget, the less they're spending on actually making filters. Fram has a huge marketing budget. Purolator and WIX to a lesser extent. Your best filters: Fleetguard (which I always thought were junk for some reason), Donaldson, Baldwin and Mann. One really can't put them in an order of 1-4, because where Fleetguard makes the best oil filter for a Mopar V8 or Cummins (Mopar's Cummins filters are Fleetguard), Donaldson makes a better air filter for a Cat 15 in a Freightshaker. Mann makes the best import car filters. Those companies use the most-stringent standards to achieve their ratings, including single-pass effectiveness. Purolator, Fram, and WIX use multiple passes (usually 5) for their micron ratings--well, your screen door will catch a 5-micron particle eventually if you run enough oil through it. I want to know what it's going to catch the first time through. At the Mid-America Truck Show in 2014, I had filter reps either running away or shaking like a dog crapping razor blades. I had a Fleetguard engineer--not a rep--so freaked out he asked my boss where he got the lifelike robot.
The best filter you can buy in an Advance Auto Parts store is the store brand. It's a Baldwin, and half the cost of the Purolator or Fram next to it (and sometimes on a BOGO to boot). CarQuest filters used to be WIX, but are now Baldwin as well; there are still WIX in the system though (wide, bold part numbering on the box indicates a WIX). NAPA=WIX, as does Auto Value/Bumper to Bumper. If you have a Ford built in the last 15 years or so, I suggest you run a Motorcraft; in the case of their diesels the oil filter design is patented, so while other manufacturers make something that fits, the function is lacking--they all allow some oil to bypass the filter media entirely. Who knows on their car filters?
Ultimately, we decided on Fleetguard, because they were the best for the majority of the filter numbers we installed. If we had a finicky customer, or one that would wait, though, we'd happily get a Donaldson or Baldwin for them. For the VW diesels that we saw, it was Mann all the way across the board, in stock. You can't successfully run a diesel shop without Cat filters. People insist on them, even though they're very secretive about specs/suppliers.
It was my job to find out. I did. I don't care if Dick Landy swore by Fram or Ted Spehar tells me to use WIX. Facts is facts.
The simple truth is this: Anyone engaging in this thread's conversation is a little more concerned than the average bear with maintaining their car. Chances are they could run recycled drain oil and a Fram filter, and if they're vigilant about maintenance will be able to swear by it in 20 years. No one can really criticize your choice if what you're doing works. I will use up the few filters I have on hand before I stock up on Fleetguards because I've never had a filter-related problem. I still use Royal Purple, as I have for nearly 20 years, but prior to that Castrol GTX served me well for a decade, and that was a decade in which I mercilessly beat every car I touched. I've grenaded two engines, a 340 and a 440, and neither one was an oil- or filter-related failure.
Stick with what works. Until it doesn't, there's no reason to mess with a proven combination.
Ray Barton's Super Stock A Hemi engines are all run on Royal Purple 0W-10 oil (Racing 9, if memory serves). They get beat on all season, and when they come in at the end for freshening the bearings look brand new. Hot, that oil drains as fast as water would. Not one oil-based failure in 20+ years.
At my last job, my boss was obsessive about filtration. My main job for the first six months was filter research. I read more about filters than most people read about everything by the end of high school. Test specifications, SAE and other standards, temperatures, pressures, test fluids, particle size, mass and shape. The marketing, sales spiels, discount/kickback offers and outright bribes made me feel like a U.S. Senator for awhile there. Micron rating is bunk unless you know how it's achieved. Mind you, going into this I was a die-hard WIX guy for over 20 years.
Fram was never even considered but I looked into them anyhow (FYI, most non-diesel Mopar filters are made by Fram, but to Mopar's specification--relax, it's not the same filter). Hey, I was getting paid for it, so I went a little crazy. Here's what I learned: the bigger the marketing budget, the less they're spending on actually making filters. Fram has a huge marketing budget. Purolator and WIX to a lesser extent. Your best filters: Fleetguard (which I always thought were junk for some reason), Donaldson, Baldwin and Mann. One really can't put them in an order of 1-4, because where Fleetguard makes the best oil filter for a Mopar V8 or Cummins (Mopar's Cummins filters are Fleetguard), Donaldson makes a better air filter for a Cat 15 in a Freightshaker. Mann makes the best import car filters. Those companies use the most-stringent standards to achieve their ratings, including single-pass effectiveness. Purolator, Fram, and WIX use multiple passes (usually 5) for their micron ratings--well, your screen door will catch a 5-micron particle eventually if you run enough oil through it. I want to know what it's going to catch the first time through. At the Mid-America Truck Show in 2014, I had filter reps either running away or shaking like a dog crapping razor blades. I had a Fleetguard engineer--not a rep--so freaked out he asked my boss where he got the lifelike robot.
The best filter you can buy in an Advance Auto Parts store is the store brand. It's a Baldwin, and half the cost of the Purolator or Fram next to it (and sometimes on a BOGO to boot). CarQuest filters used to be WIX, but are now Baldwin as well; there are still WIX in the system though (wide, bold part numbering on the box indicates a WIX). NAPA=WIX, as does Auto Value/Bumper to Bumper. If you have a Ford built in the last 15 years or so, I suggest you run a Motorcraft; in the case of their diesels the oil filter design is patented, so while other manufacturers make something that fits, the function is lacking--they all allow some oil to bypass the filter media entirely. Who knows on their car filters?
Ultimately, we decided on Fleetguard, because they were the best for the majority of the filter numbers we installed. If we had a finicky customer, or one that would wait, though, we'd happily get a Donaldson or Baldwin for them. For the VW diesels that we saw, it was Mann all the way across the board, in stock. You can't successfully run a diesel shop without Cat filters. People insist on them, even though they're very secretive about specs/suppliers.
It was my job to find out. I did. I don't care if Dick Landy swore by Fram or Ted Spehar tells me to use WIX. Facts is facts.
The simple truth is this: Anyone engaging in this thread's conversation is a little more concerned than the average bear with maintaining their car. Chances are they could run recycled drain oil and a Fram filter, and if they're vigilant about maintenance will be able to swear by it in 20 years. No one can really criticize your choice if what you're doing works. I will use up the few filters I have on hand before I stock up on Fleetguards because I've never had a filter-related problem. I still use Royal Purple, as I have for nearly 20 years, but prior to that Castrol GTX served me well for a decade, and that was a decade in which I mercilessly beat every car I touched. I've grenaded two engines, a 340 and a 440, and neither one was an oil- or filter-related failure.
Stick with what works. Until it doesn't, there's no reason to mess with a proven combination.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Again, I thought the thread was about a stock 87 F/A 318 and not 110 years of oil and engines.
Royal Purple would be a waste of money and not good on a stock 87 F/A 318.
No diesel on a F/A either.
Royal Purple would be a waste of money and not good on a stock 87 F/A 318.
No diesel on a F/A either.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
But when it comes to these 'additive's', 110 yrs and diesel becomes a topic.
Same 'additive' applies to all engines in the same amount?
Don't think so.
Same 'additive' applies to all engines in the same amount?
Don't think so.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
It was originally. But covering all the bases ain't a bad thing either.
I think we beat the original question to death enough anyway.
My Fifth gets good ol Quaker State 10W 30 conventional.
So a pristine '87 318 isn't worth preserving with quality oil? I use it in my ratty '92 Dakota with a 3.9L.
The only reason diesels entered into the conversation is because that was where I was working when I did all this research. Perhaps you missed the part where I said, "Fleetguard makes the best oil filter for a Mopar V8"?
The only reason diesels entered into the conversation is because that was where I was working when I did all this research. Perhaps you missed the part where I said, "Fleetguard makes the best oil filter for a Mopar V8"?
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Just saying gas and diesel are different puppies.
Not throwing sulfur into my gas motor because it works on diesels.
When it comes to 77-89 carbed Mopar motors, I'll go with the advice given to me.
Ask about another motor and the answer is different.
If I had a Furd, I might run their filters after talking to Ford experts.
Not throwing sulfur into my gas motor because it works on diesels.
When it comes to 77-89 carbed Mopar motors, I'll go with the advice given to me.
Ask about another motor and the answer is different.
If I had a Furd, I might run their filters after talking to Ford experts.
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Next time I see one of my Mopar giys who turned be one to Baldwin, I'm going to ask about Fleetguard.
I don't remember that name coming up in their filter round up, or I just forgot.
I don't remember that name coming up in their filter round up, or I just forgot.
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
And this is why I'm so crazy about oil changes and why I always want to know the best oil and the best filters to run.
My engines are all bone stock. But that doesn't mean I don't want the best for them.
ramenth
Well-Known Member
Mobil 1 is synthetic. You're mistaking Mobil 1 with Mobil Super and Mobil 5000. If it's labeled Mobil 1 it's synthetic.
VR1 has the necessary ZDDP content. So does Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Amsoil. Amsoil was one of the first synth's and has been around for decades. My old man ran it in his flat heads. Yeah, you read that right: in his flat heads and you really can't get much older than that.
I've never rebuilt an engine because of a wiped cam and lack of zinc. I have, though, rebuilt plenty of engines due to oil sludging, usually caused by high paraffin bases, improper maintenance, a lack of warm up times as well as those that have been run hard and put away wet. Stuck chokes that cause bearing wash with all that gas wiping the oil off the cylinders and getting into the oil pan where it's pumped through the engine (talk about wiping a cam... have the pump push diluted gas all over the lobes) Getting back into engines from the 50's and the 60's I've rebuilt a lot of engines because of people running HD's and then switching to ND's and back and forth. A 392 Hemi that had absolutely no oil going to the valve train because of it.
Speaking of switch back and forth, one of the worst things you can do to your engine is switch out your oil. Each of the oil refiners has it's own base formula to start with. Many of them put a "glaze" on the machine surfaces that doesn't necessarily play well with other oils. Switching every time your local retailer has a package deal doesn't help and can actually lead to the sludging I'm talking about.
Wiped lobes usually happen within the first thousand or so miles and has more to do with inexperienced builders not knowing how to break in the cam and a lack of break in lube or they don't know how to get it to fire immediately and grind on it until it does. Wiped lobe.
I gotta admit, I didn't read the article from Hot Rod or the Wiki link. Didn't need to. Got experience on my side as to what works and what doesn't. Been doing it for a great many years and learned from a man who cut his teeth hot rodding engines since he was fourteen (he's 74 now, if that means anything).
The thing is this: how many of our cars are used as dailies vs used as summer rides. Synths work in doing a lot of things: they are better at combating friction, they work in coating machine surfaces better which serves its purpose in long storage, especially in non-climate controlled storage.
Even then, if you do use your car as a daily and only for short hops synths work better against sludging. They also work better against carbon build ups (better friction wicking).
By the way, most of you do realize that "synth" are just oils that are more refined than "conventionals" right? To break it down think of three stages of refinement: "conventional" is the most rudimentary refinement, with a few additives, "synth blends" have been refined more with a few more additives, with "synthetics" being refined even further with even more additives. Many people are under the mistaken belief that "synthetics" don't come from the same barrel of oil as "conventionals." It all starts from the same barrel of crude.
Had to replace the 84 MC 305 cam and lifters for dishing *lots of lobes* and it had clean oil in it from day one, mostly Castrol 20-50 or 40... tested the rest of the lobes for hardness thinking the cam may not have been flame hardened - not so. Only had 130k miles and the new one dial indicates still good w/220k now. Have been adding the zinc since the cam change. . . my 98 MC gets a little too, for good measure even though it has roller rockers/lifters. Lawnmower, edger, etc.. all good!
Jack Meoff
Mopar Maniac
Okay.....just to throw this out there.
I have two bone stock flat tappet slants and a roller 318. If they were yours what oil would you run in each?
Dr Lebaron
Well-Known Member
Not one person who has car knowledge way beyond me has stood before me and said run synthetic and everyone says no to my face on my 77-89 Mopars.
Personally, I'll go with with them, because of their credentials.
Personally, I'll go with with them, because of their credentials.
Just for clarification on this example:
Early- to mid-1980s 305s were notorious for soft cams. Most wiped right at or around 120,000 miles. They were just bad cams. My Dad had an '84 Delta 88 with an L69 H.O. transplanted into it (don't ask). I was at college in the fall of '89 when he called me and said he was thinking of trading it in, even though he loved the car. It had developed a tick and didn't have the "zip" (his term) it once had. I asked him the mileage, and he told me 121,000. I said, "The cam is wiped. The car isn't worth the cost of the repairs," since he couldn't do the work himself. He traded it in on a new Delta. Anyone working in the auto service industry in the '80s should remember the 305's cam issues. I was 19 and a Mopar guy and I knew about it. It was very common, and it didn't matter what oil you used. Ain't a one of 'em ever made 150K miles with all its lobes.
