The BIG 360 rethink

Bruceynz

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The stock 904 lock up appears to have a very low stall, if I hit the gas pedal off idle the rev counter doesn't even jump up, its like its at stall speed already, in my 2003 gm I hit the gas pedal and it jumps up to 2300rpm. I thought stock stall on 1970s Chrysler was like 1700-1800rpm never heard at stock stall of 2200 rpm in my readings, I will have to look at the service manual again to verify.

Thanks
Bruce
 

jasperjacko

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I really think tire frying ( if that's your goal) won't be a problem. I even tried 275/ 60's drag radials on my combo and lit them up with 3.55 sure grip.
 

AJ/FormS

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The 340s were 2250ish, as were the 360 4bbls.( EDIT; I should say the FSM lists the stalls at 2250).They needed the extra Rs on account of that 340 cam was doughy at 1800.
I have never owned a factory automatic 340 car. I have put a true 2800 behind a TQ'ed teener, and that was very endearing, especially with 3.55s or better, and the A999. Think 2.74 x 3.55 x 1.10x 300#? =3210# into the rear axles. It didn't spin 295s very far, but man did it blast off. I guessed at the 300#@2800.
 
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AJ/FormS

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I put a 1965 A904 from a 273-2bbl, behind a 340 once with a complete 318 top end on it, including the cam and 2bbl. This was my big-bore teener city car experiment. Just junk I threw together cuz I had it, and was broke, and the slanty in the long-roof was burning more oil than gas.My only expense was the fenderwell headers. and the 2" pipes, with Thrush shorties; Man did it bark!
It smoOooked the tires! even with 2.76s. That's what Dcr can do for you. Well that and a favorable torque to weight ratio, at the start line and beyond.
The teener cam was the stock, well worn 240/248/112 item. The 340 was a 68 or 69. The heads were open chambers already, but I did this in the early 70s, so that is the latest they could have been. Ima thinking that combo was close to 9.0Dcr, with pressure close to I'm guessing, 190.Yeah we had leaded hi-test back then, but lighting up the skinny tire or tires back there, (which was all you could fit in those wheel wells), at will, gas was never an issue.I imagine the starter gear was 2.76x2.45=6.76, and if the TC kicked in 10%, that might be a 7.44 ratio for all of the 50 micro-seconds it took to get the tires rotating. I'm also gonna guess that,that big-bore teener mighta made 280/300# at whatever stall that poor 273 TC mighta been forced to endure. That makes just 2084 to 2230# into the rear axles. That is enough to break two skinny 13s loose. And when they go, they will never bite, till the Roadspeed comes close to where you have the throttle adjusted to; even with a 2bbl . Man that was so much fun!
Hey it wasn't a fast car. It wasn't a quick car. It wasn't desirable back then. It was a junker, built from junk parts. I didn't have $1000 into the project at the time, and half of it was the exhaust system. But it was the second funnest car I ever owned!
Man I had a lot of fun with that old Valiant. First gear burned forever. Right until the day the tranny went soft,lol
I would love to have another, in the same shape as that ten year old beauty,was.
I'd do things a bit different tho,second time around.lol. 190psi was awesome!
My current combo makes about 180, still awesome.
 
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AJ/FormS

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Well, My combo works pretty good, is it perfect? No. Anyone telling you they got 32mpg from a hot carbed 360 must have hit the wrong buttons on the calculator. That's efi Honda civic mpgs. Not gonna happen.

Them's fighting words JJ,lol
You are right at the peak pressure for pump gas and iron heads. Good job. And no, your combo will never go 32 mpgs. Well it could with about $12,000Cannuck-bucks worth of changes,lol
You will need a final drive ratio of 2.0 or less,and a manual trans, and an engine making about 200psi, with a 220ish cam. You can keep the TQ. You will have to tune the nuts off the engine,especially the timing.You will need a dash-mounted,dial-back, timing device cuz the factory dizzy will not start the fire early enough. You will have to lower the car to speed-bump-bashing. You will want to put the skinny tires back on with 40 psi in them. You will need to keep the windows rolled up, with no A/C, even if it is 95* out there.You will need to lighten up the car to the barest essentials, and you and your passenger will need to forgo eating until you arrive at your destination. I also used a 7qt pan with just 4.5 qts in it,and ran the engine at 205*.The dual 3 inch pipes with TTIs offer no resistance whatsoever to the exiting exhaust at 1588rpm@65mph. The 68 Barracuda fb seems to cut through the air pretty good, but I put a little rake on it just to help it along.
If you get it up to 85, the revs will be 2077, which is just a little after where the vacuum peaks, and that's about when the engine stops running in reversion.After that, just lean it out till it pukes, then give her a little bit back. Easy peasy.
You only have to lean out the low-speed circuit. This is not brain surgery. On the 600Vacuum secondary I was running, I just modded the top of the idle-wells to receive rubber plugs. Then I drilled out the fuel orifice under there; just a tiny bit. Then I just started sticking different sized wires into there until the engine was so lean it wouldn't pull itself anymore, and backed up a hair. Then I increased the already leaned out primary MJs in compensation. And I jammed the stiffest secondary spring into the pod that Holley offers. Then off for another roadtest, and so on until she would just maintain 85mph on the flat hard concrete hiway. Then I dinked the timing around until the mph peaked. And then we were ready for the 8 hour trip. Which somehow turned into 10 one-way, and 12 coming home, in the dark. Oh now I remember: border crossing. It was easy going south, but those Canadian guards were real mean fellows. It seems if you get there at midnight,they suddenly become real cranky.
When I got to my destination,off came the 600 and back on went the 750dp, and I returned the timing to it's normal setting.With the 3.55s and the 3.09 low in the tranny, things were back to normal.

Oh, BTW, this combo, with the GVOD used as a splitter, went 12.9/106, with a 2.2 60ft, on street tires.No,not with the 600, silly.And that is not a best-of run. Well it sorta is,cuz it is the only run I ever did in that combo.I was so happy with a 12 second run, I said that's all I wanted to know, lets go eat track-food.So my son and I went and sat in the bleachers for a while, and then mossied on home 3 hours away....at 62 mph. Three hours there, three hours home and three hours at the track plus a couple of meals, and a slow waltz thru the capitol,makes a too-long day for me; I never went back to that track.
Yes,I did offer my so the keys that day.....but he declined.
 
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BudW

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I didn’t check in any this weekend and have a lot on forums to catch up on.

BruceNZ, this thread, post number 42 - I hadn’t read that article before, but have read it in a lot of older magazine articles before. A good read/write up.

Other than chamber size, the ports are close in any pre-magnum 340-360 - but the “X” heads are best untouched. With minor porting, any (non-magnum) 360 head will flow about the same, if not better, than a 340 X head. Magnums (and aftermarket) are the exception.

An unmentioned item is: to use a ~’75 or newer 360 head, one will need to tap and plug the air injection holes, if one is not using an air injection exhaust manifold (ie: need to plug holes if using an older exhaust manifolds, magnum exhaust manifolds or headers).
This job is not hard to do and is reversible (if needed).


On Torque Converter stall speeds. This is a trick question – for knowing what stall speed you want, you also need to know car weight, engine power and quite a few other details - for if the exact torque converter is installed into a super lightweight car will have a different stall speed if same (exact) torque converter is installed into a large bus.

Also, the stall speed on an existing converter will go up as the engine power goes up.
There is a torque converter measurement (memory is thinking K.U., but could be wrong) to compare converter “A” to converter “B”. A lot goes into figuring out what converter one actually needs. Also changes to vehicle can/will change the size converter one actually needs.

The point I'm trying to say is i'm not exactly sure if your replacement will be what you want. Then again, it might be exactly what you want.
If making engine changes - I would hold off on converter replacement until you can retest the stall speeds (if able to wait, that is).


The low gear set and/or lockup between the 904 and 999. The A904/A998/A999 transmission case is the same for all 3 transmission types. The /6 uses a different bolt pattern case and the A500 has a different case (for 4th gear/overdrive).

Now with that said, a person can change any A904/A998/A999 transmission to lockup or to non-lock up.
They can be changed from the older low gear set to the newer gear set (IMO, the better one).
Also any A904/A998/A999 transmission can be converted to the newer style lockup clutch (if wanting to retain lockup, that is), to the more reliable converter hub that has two flat sizes, from the slotted hub.
slot vs flat hub.png


Just about the only thing you can’t do is convert an A904/A998/A999 case to an A500 (overdrive).

Using a lockup converter (vs. non-lockup) gets the average person about 9-10% better fuel mileage. Most of that is highway driving. City driving, it does help, but not as much.

Personally, I am building a 727 for my big block, and I will be converting it to lock up. On the same note, I am also planning on driving it 30k miles a year – so the expense to convert it, will pay for itself.

There are pro’s and con’s both ways on going to (or retaining) lockup or going to (or retaining) non-lockup.
Personally, I prefer lock-up. That said, don’t use my opinion to make your decision.

To recap, you can use both of your transmissions (the 904 and 999) to make one that has both the gear set you want and non-lockup.

I wish you were closer (like a couple hours’ drive) to me, and for dinner and a few cold ones, I would come down and get the transmission exactly like you want it (except for the Removal/Reinstallation part).
BudW
 

Bruceynz

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Come on down under, I have a bed for you here Bud and I will feed you. I have an empty 522sqft garage we can work in, just been built on my property we can work in :) Oh and I will feed you as much NZ beer, Wine, Water as you can take along with good NZ food! And you can drive the doba to get around if you think you can drive a left hand drive car on the left side of the road, now thats crazy! try not driving on the other side, its quite hazardous to your health! Oh and while I am at work earning money to pay for the expensive parts as I don't like the idea of selling my ball sack to pay for for parts you could bolt the trans in and out :) Its a fun job I know! Have a complete rebuild kit for Oregon Performance trans, stage 1 shift kit, pistons and Kevlar bands and the stall converter, that would keep you busy for a week I reckon!

www.oregonperformancetransmission.com

OPT-A904-RBHP.
Double wrap: PTB-12820A-K
Single wrap: PTB-12820-K
TRG-TF-1
Servo: part number SUP-K030
Reverse servo: part number SNX-22912A
 
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BudW

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After driving on the, um, Right side of the street for 36 years, I could be a public terror on the street.

Very tempting, but I don’t think my wife would let me go for more than a weekend. It might take that long just to get there . . .
 

Bruceynz

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Um a tad more than that! Well worth it though, we get a lot of movie stars come down here to hide and relax, its quite pretty here but to me I am use to it so its the norm. Here is a photo where I went for my summer vacation, check out the color of the lake. Remember down under xmas is in summer so we have BBQs for xmas and we have our summer vacation at the same time. So well your freezing your butts off we are knocking back beers, eating food off the BBQ and getting sun burnt, life is good!

tek.jpg
 

4speedjim

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Bruce, I think you need to cut that converter in half, stick a clock in the center and hang it on the wall. But before we write that off as wall art.
Your short blocks all good right? Bores look good? You have compression? Timing chain isn't hanging is it? Distributors advancing? TV (downshift) is properly adjusted?
If its not too late, hold off on the head work, and see if you can find a 650 carb. Vacuum secondary if I had a choice. I like that 262 cam AJ/ selected, if budget permits, I would suggest an la or Magnum roller RV cam, like one a step above the Magnum R/T roller HER0814AL. It will pull 400+Lbft off Idle. Idle with authority and pull strong to 6000. Hughes HUG SMC 2336AL Is a flat tappet really an ideal High torque cam for your car, gear and performance. You will love the idle and performance of this cam. If flat tappet is all your budget can stand. $165 USD. Once the cam and carb have been changed you can test that torque converter and decide at this point, is it a wall art or a real 2500 rpm converter. I find it hard to believe your motor couldn't drive your TC, not impossible, just hard to believe it ran that poorly it wouldn't slip the trans to build Rpm.. Did it ever run well, or has it been a turd all along? I'm hoping to find a baseline starting point we can build off of. We will get it together and running strong without running your wallet on empty.
 

Bruceynz

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Hi,

Car was a stock 318 car with a 2.2:1 rear end ratio. It was a turd! I picked up a nice 360 in LA (knowing what I know now I should of bought a Magnum hindsight is 20/20)

The engine has had work done, but I don't know what, I had the oil pan off and it looked nice in the bores, could see cross hatching, HV oil pump, the heads have valve springs with dampners. The engine came with a 870cfm Street Avenger but I thought that was a bit big and my friend has that on his 440 cuda now (I gave it to him as he painted my car) I had a new 600 holley I bought was going to use when it was a 318, so decided to put that on.

I had the A998 in their serviced and thought since I know its good and it was a lock up it would help a bit on gas. Trans had only done 73,000miles. So I got one of those B&M balanced adapter plates and bolted the 904 upto the 360.

I used the 2bbl linkages for the kick down, I managed to actually make it work well, even my friend in Oz checked it out and he said he couldn't have got that working better himself, looked pretty good to him. Thing would not change over 3500rpm, if I manually shift the trans at 1st to 2nd at 4000rpm I think the trans slips.

In Drive hit the gas it can barely spin the tire on an open 3.21:1 8.25" rear, (I changed the rear end as well from 7.25 to 8.25") I noticed the converter has no stall to it, I hit the gas off idle and the revs just pick up, the rev counter doesn't jump up, the car also wants to creep forward all the time as well.

So since it has has quite a narly cam it in, has a rough idle and I have found somewhere between 1500 - 2000rpm as I haven't had a chance to get exact RPM that it really starts to pick up.

Have a look here



you can hear me say 1500rpm then flat to the floor, then the engine picks up slowly then comes on song and you can hear it really get into it!

So since I had this powerful cam I thought I would upgrade the trans to to non lock up with a 2200 - 2500 stall converter. Get the compression up and get the flow up with bigger valves and a port job.

Thanks
Bruce
 
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4speedjim

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So we can rule out the short block and timing chain. Is it safe to assume the distributor is advancing? About how far down are the pistons, ball park? Whatever stock would be? Was the motor bored with new pistons or was the block just honed with stock pistons & new rings? Just trying to get a guess at compression. I'm guessing 8.5-1 if there stock pistons. Most aftermarket pistons will have ID on the top, like TRW .030 or something like that. I'm guessing you'd rather not buy pistons at this point if you don't absolutely have to. We can work with whatever you have.
 
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