XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Ive several old but good ones id send ya.
Introducing New Member: Davesmopar
- Thread starter Davesmopar
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Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Anyway you can double-check them before you send them just to make sure? And then let me know what you want for them and I'll email you my address
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Yes I can check them, pm me your addy and I will send a couple off. Ive a good working old alternator I could sent to you could try. Just old stuff ive kept but would probably never use.
Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Ok thanks
The regulators can be fine. Many times folks have found the wiring, due to age, right at the connector has become sketchy in its connection to the connector that connects to the regulator. You will find replacement regulator wire harness connectors a stock item at many parts houses.
Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your response.... aa soon as I can post pictures/video. I will show that I bypassed the entire voltage regulator wiring system including connectors....
Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
A few pics of my working progress...
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Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
A common problem I see on older cars is a poor ground (to voltage regulator or to ICU).
The Chrysler voltage regulator controls both the voltage going to alternator and ground coming back from alternator. If the positive leg gets grounded, it will melt something (and hopefully, its not the entire car). If the negative side gets grounded, it can cause over-voltage.
The same thing on the alternator, if the negative side brush is not insulated (from ground) correctly, it can cause the same thing. The two brush electrical connectors (pigtails) on alternator can be reversed. I would check to make sure the brushes on the alternator are insulated from ground and to make sure the regulator is grounded (might move the firewall ground wire to the regulator bolt hole).
Chrysler voltage regulators to fail, but not a real common thing.
I would like to see a few more underhood pictures, if possible.
BudW
The Chrysler voltage regulator controls both the voltage going to alternator and ground coming back from alternator. If the positive leg gets grounded, it will melt something (and hopefully, its not the entire car). If the negative side gets grounded, it can cause over-voltage.
The same thing on the alternator, if the negative side brush is not insulated (from ground) correctly, it can cause the same thing. The two brush electrical connectors (pigtails) on alternator can be reversed. I would check to make sure the brushes on the alternator are insulated from ground and to make sure the regulator is grounded (might move the firewall ground wire to the regulator bolt hole).
Chrysler voltage regulators to fail, but not a real common thing.
I would like to see a few more underhood pictures, if possible.
BudW
Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I don't know how to post videos showing how I bypassed the entire voltage regulator wiring system to eliminate the vehicle wiring.....
Any help is appreciated, I am thinking about running a dedicated ground from alternator to the engine block......
All grounds have been removed wire wheeled, holes wire brushed and made sure no corrosion. ..
Any help is appreciated, I am thinking about running a dedicated ground from alternator to the engine block......
All grounds have been removed wire wheeled, holes wire brushed and made sure no corrosion. ..
Looks like you touched the main points.
I don't like the battery terminals and nearby wiring – but that shouldn't cause an over-voltage problem (it will cause more of an under-voltage problem).
What is the voltage at battery, when car is at idle and at say 1500 RPM?
The underhood electrical sees a large variety of temperatures and moisture levels. It is very important to solder all electrical connections and to use heat-shrink wrap to prevent corrosion. Using electrical tape helps but for underhood work, it is not preferred. The battery post is also not a good location for a “battery tap”, either for it is highly likely to corrode in a short time.
In this photo, I see four (yellow) crimped connectors and what appears to be two electrical taped connections.
I should back up a bit. I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your car. I'm only giving my thoughts on trying to fix this problem and what I see working on cars for a long time. Crimped electrical connectors located underhood, does become a hair pulling problem a few years down the road under normal driving conditions, when trying to find out why something is not working correctly.
In your case, I see five different leads hooked up to the positive battery cable:
- One large one goes to the starter.
- The other large one should go a few inches to a large (white) connector (to disconnect the battery for transport or when inside an office building). This wire is for all electrical functions except for starter power and hazard lights.
- A smaller wire goes to another single connector, for the hazard lights.
- Of the other two wires. I would guess one is for your temporary charging system supply wire and the other is for ignition system or radio (I'm guessing).
Once you get your problem fixed, I suggest taking the main electrical wire and adding a junction box a short distance from the battery. A fellow forum member @Aspen500 did this to his Aspen. Fusible Links (post #6)
Not directly related, this forum post shows how F-body battery cables should look and routed.
Positive battery cable replacement. (my post #9).
Note: I recently installed a replacement negative battery cable like one shown (post $9) onto my '86 fifth Ave.
Aspen500 is also an automotive technician and he understands the importance of keeping those electrical connections watertight.
BudW
I don't like the battery terminals and nearby wiring – but that shouldn't cause an over-voltage problem (it will cause more of an under-voltage problem).
What is the voltage at battery, when car is at idle and at say 1500 RPM?
The underhood electrical sees a large variety of temperatures and moisture levels. It is very important to solder all electrical connections and to use heat-shrink wrap to prevent corrosion. Using electrical tape helps but for underhood work, it is not preferred. The battery post is also not a good location for a “battery tap”, either for it is highly likely to corrode in a short time.
In this photo, I see four (yellow) crimped connectors and what appears to be two electrical taped connections.
I should back up a bit. I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your car. I'm only giving my thoughts on trying to fix this problem and what I see working on cars for a long time. Crimped electrical connectors located underhood, does become a hair pulling problem a few years down the road under normal driving conditions, when trying to find out why something is not working correctly.
In your case, I see five different leads hooked up to the positive battery cable:
- One large one goes to the starter.
- The other large one should go a few inches to a large (white) connector (to disconnect the battery for transport or when inside an office building). This wire is for all electrical functions except for starter power and hazard lights.
- A smaller wire goes to another single connector, for the hazard lights.
- Of the other two wires. I would guess one is for your temporary charging system supply wire and the other is for ignition system or radio (I'm guessing).
Once you get your problem fixed, I suggest taking the main electrical wire and adding a junction box a short distance from the battery. A fellow forum member @Aspen500 did this to his Aspen. Fusible Links (post #6)
Not directly related, this forum post shows how F-body battery cables should look and routed.
Positive battery cable replacement. (my post #9).
Note: I recently installed a replacement negative battery cable like one shown (post $9) onto my '86 fifth Ave.
Aspen500 is also an automotive technician and he understands the importance of keeping those electrical connections watertight.
BudW
Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Wow, great post and advice.... , Thanks....
Yes the one Red wire that goes past the negative terminal is the dedicated B+ for the MSD 6AL system.... The other has just been done and is the B+ for the alternator.....
Once I figure out the over charging issue I can go back and clean up the wiring. . No corrosion in any of the yellow connectors (all new)......
BTW I love the TT junction box....
I am a 30+ year technician and a problem solver, I have been the go to guy for help and I can figure most things out.... I know alot but Dang sure don't know everything... Haha.... I am beating my head on the wall over the charging system though..... Everything is telling me the regulator is bad.... 5 different ones from different places, I even tried a good used one from a member on here....
I had replaced the alternator 15 years ago but never ran the car.... I replaced the positive and negative rectifier Bridges along with the capacitor just to make sure was okay.... even sent out to an alternator repair place and it checked out good... replaced the good alternator with another new one, same issues...
I KNOW it is something stupid/simple just have to find it.....
Or it is possessed....... lmbo
Yes the one Red wire that goes past the negative terminal is the dedicated B+ for the MSD 6AL system.... The other has just been done and is the B+ for the alternator.....
Once I figure out the over charging issue I can go back and clean up the wiring. . No corrosion in any of the yellow connectors (all new)......
BTW I love the TT junction box....
I am a 30+ year technician and a problem solver, I have been the go to guy for help and I can figure most things out.... I know alot but Dang sure don't know everything... Haha.... I am beating my head on the wall over the charging system though..... Everything is telling me the regulator is bad.... 5 different ones from different places, I even tried a good used one from a member on here....
I had replaced the alternator 15 years ago but never ran the car.... I replaced the positive and negative rectifier Bridges along with the capacitor just to make sure was okay.... even sent out to an alternator repair place and it checked out good... replaced the good alternator with another new one, same issues...
I KNOW it is something stupid/simple just have to find it.....
Or it is possessed....... lmbo
What is the voltage at battery when car is running at idle, and at 1500 RPM?
Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Is there anyway to upload a video of what it's doing??
At idea it's anywhere from 12.8+ to 13.5....
1500 anywhere from 14.5 to 16+.....
It bounces around a lot...
At idea it's anywhere from 12.8+ to 13.5....
1500 anywhere from 14.5 to 16+.....
It bounces around a lot...
You have that MSD ignition, and that crazy oversized coil I wounder if they are causing some charging system issue / feedback the way you have the car wired now?
I have never been an MSD fan. I have seen to many of their boxes go bad, and cause all kinds of issues with perfectly good cars.
I used to be a big fan of the Jacobs ignition systems. They were just a better built product, but they eventually went out of business after their founder passed away, and the company was sold.
I have never been an MSD fan. I have seen to many of their boxes go bad, and cause all kinds of issues with perfectly good cars.
I used to be a big fan of the Jacobs ignition systems. They were just a better built product, but they eventually went out of business after their founder passed away, and the company was sold.
kkritsilas
Well-Known Member
BudW:
Soldering connections is NOT RECOMMENDED for automotive wiring. Crimped connectors is the way to go. I know it doesn't sound logical, and probably goes against everything that seems logical, but it is the truth. Use of heat shrink is optional, and a good idea, even on crimped connections. There are crimped connectors that already have the insulators made of a heat shrinkable material that are an alternative. Soldering is not a reliable mechanical connection method, it is an electrical connection method. There is an industry standard by a body called the IPC, and the standard is IPC-610D (I think it is D, it may have moved to E or F by now).
Solder connections will crack under the stress of vibration and rapid temperature changes, pretty much the conditions present in automotive environments. There are dozens of years of research in the electronics industry regarding solder joint cracking, not just of cable connections, but of printed circuit board connections as well. Important generally, critical in military and aerospace (probably the only two areas that see harsher environments than automotive).
Crimped connections are not just a physical smashing of two metals together. In a properly made crimped connection, the metal of the connector actually cold flows around the wire, almost becoming fused with the copper conductor. The metal used in crimped connectors is a specific alloy, chosen exactly for this purpose. The other part, which most people do not consider, is that the pressure used to compress the connector must be pretty exact. I know that in the automotive repair industry, it is common to use those sheet metal crimper tools, usually that have a stripper as well. It is not what is done in the electronics industry. The crimps are made with either a controlled cycle hand tool (it has a ratcheting action, when you start to crimp. you must complete the crimp with the correct pressure before the tool will release), or dedicated crimping machines, mostly electrical, but sometimes also with added pneumatic elements in addition. Whereas the crimps made by the sheet metal tools are just a single indented point, the crimps of controlled cycle and dedicated tools are sort of rectangular, and flat. The controlled cycle hand tools are expensive (for good ones), and that is why they are not used by many in the automotive repair business.
It is easy to see the truth of this. In any factory wiring, try to find a solder joint. Bet you can't. If you do the same to military or aerospace equipment, any cable connections will be crimped, never soldered, for exactly the reasons cited above. if there was a way to make printed circuit boards without solder, they would have changed over a long time ago. Believe me, they have tried. As it is, cracked solder joints on printed circuit boards are a major reliability issue, even today (actually getting worse, as the use of no-lead solder mandated by environmental groups has resulted in increased solder joint failures). If you can find a correctly made crimped connector (look for a rectangular indentation) on a ring terminal, cut through the barrel of the connector. Even with the barrel completely cut through, you will have a hard time separating the copper strands from the metal of the barrel. It should also be noted that crimped terminals come in sizes to fit wires of specific gauges, and it is important to use the right size terminal for the wire gauge.
Not looking to start an argument, I am just trying to bring some facts to this.
Soldering connections is NOT RECOMMENDED for automotive wiring. Crimped connectors is the way to go. I know it doesn't sound logical, and probably goes against everything that seems logical, but it is the truth. Use of heat shrink is optional, and a good idea, even on crimped connections. There are crimped connectors that already have the insulators made of a heat shrinkable material that are an alternative. Soldering is not a reliable mechanical connection method, it is an electrical connection method. There is an industry standard by a body called the IPC, and the standard is IPC-610D (I think it is D, it may have moved to E or F by now).
Solder connections will crack under the stress of vibration and rapid temperature changes, pretty much the conditions present in automotive environments. There are dozens of years of research in the electronics industry regarding solder joint cracking, not just of cable connections, but of printed circuit board connections as well. Important generally, critical in military and aerospace (probably the only two areas that see harsher environments than automotive).
Crimped connections are not just a physical smashing of two metals together. In a properly made crimped connection, the metal of the connector actually cold flows around the wire, almost becoming fused with the copper conductor. The metal used in crimped connectors is a specific alloy, chosen exactly for this purpose. The other part, which most people do not consider, is that the pressure used to compress the connector must be pretty exact. I know that in the automotive repair industry, it is common to use those sheet metal crimper tools, usually that have a stripper as well. It is not what is done in the electronics industry. The crimps are made with either a controlled cycle hand tool (it has a ratcheting action, when you start to crimp. you must complete the crimp with the correct pressure before the tool will release), or dedicated crimping machines, mostly electrical, but sometimes also with added pneumatic elements in addition. Whereas the crimps made by the sheet metal tools are just a single indented point, the crimps of controlled cycle and dedicated tools are sort of rectangular, and flat. The controlled cycle hand tools are expensive (for good ones), and that is why they are not used by many in the automotive repair business.
It is easy to see the truth of this. In any factory wiring, try to find a solder joint. Bet you can't. If you do the same to military or aerospace equipment, any cable connections will be crimped, never soldered, for exactly the reasons cited above. if there was a way to make printed circuit boards without solder, they would have changed over a long time ago. Believe me, they have tried. As it is, cracked solder joints on printed circuit boards are a major reliability issue, even today (actually getting worse, as the use of no-lead solder mandated by environmental groups has resulted in increased solder joint failures). If you can find a correctly made crimped connector (look for a rectangular indentation) on a ring terminal, cut through the barrel of the connector. Even with the barrel completely cut through, you will have a hard time separating the copper strands from the metal of the barrel. It should also be noted that crimped terminals come in sizes to fit wires of specific gauges, and it is important to use the right size terminal for the wire gauge.
Not looking to start an argument, I am just trying to bring some facts to this.
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Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
Thanks KKritsilas. I've been out of an professional shop for a few years. At the time, the solder and heat shrink was to fight corrosion. I did wonder about solder making the wire to stiff (might not be a problem on a straight stretch of wire, but more so at a connector or at a bend in wiring).
Davemopar, you have battery voltage at one end of the alternator field wires, somehow. These PDF's (below) are from my '77 FSM (Factory Service Manual) – which should be the same for your car. The disassembly/reassembly section wasn't included.
Edit: it is possible that electrical noise (from MSD box and/or ignition coil) might be interfering with voltage regulation, somehow.
I've never been a fan of MSD (not saying the are bad, just not a fan) or the big ignition coils – but I would think the “noise” would affect the MSD box first,
the way your test wiring is laid out, I wouldn't think that electrical noise would matter much.
Note: Chrysler used external voltage regulators for a reason. External regulators do a better job with battery life (charging battery at correct voltage when outside temperatures vary). That section of firewall (AC/Heater system air intake or cowl) does a good job of allowing the regulator to keep tabs on outside air temp.
BudW
Davemopar, you have battery voltage at one end of the alternator field wires, somehow. These PDF's (below) are from my '77 FSM (Factory Service Manual) – which should be the same for your car. The disassembly/reassembly section wasn't included.
Edit: it is possible that electrical noise (from MSD box and/or ignition coil) might be interfering with voltage regulation, somehow.
I've never been a fan of MSD (not saying the are bad, just not a fan) or the big ignition coils – but I would think the “noise” would affect the MSD box first,
the way your test wiring is laid out, I wouldn't think that electrical noise would matter much.
Note: Chrysler used external voltage regulators for a reason. External regulators do a better job with battery life (charging battery at correct voltage when outside temperatures vary). That section of firewall (AC/Heater system air intake or cowl) does a good job of allowing the regulator to keep tabs on outside air temp.
BudW
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Davesmopar
Well-Known Member
1st of all thank you everyone for trying to help.... I hope I don't sound rude below..... lol
I had this exact same setup engine included in the 77 RT, with zero issues, I do have the coil wire insulated with aluminum foil with a heater hose wrapped around that..
If you saw the video below, if it shows, move the regulator to the fender and straight wired it bypassing entire voltage regulator wiring harness...
It has to be a ground issue somehow between the alternator and the engine (head)......
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