My first post and it's a doozy

[AMC Diplomat]

Did you try cranking it over with the pump out to see if that was the issue?

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Did you try cranking it over with the pump out to see if that was the issue?

I'll do you one better.
Spent the better part of 10 hours disassembling and reassembling multiple times.(And a few beer breaks cause I needed them at this point)
Trying different combinations of things.

Consensus is, we still don't know what is actually being hit BUT I'm thinking warped cover or bending due to crack.

1-The bolt directly under the fuel pump, makes a big impact
I start and run the car with that bolt tightened to spec 30ftpounds, and it ticks like crazy like in the video.
If I back it off to where it's just barely snug the ticking is completely gone even at higher rpm.
If I tighten it back up progressively you can hear the ticking get more and more pronounced.
This is with only the bottom oil pan bolts, power steering bolts and fuel pump bolts in

2-There is a crack in the timing cover, a fairly straight line on the inside right down the bolt hole for the bolt under the fuel pump. It goes right through to the other side of the bolt hole, although it doesn't seem to go any further than where the hole meets the rest of the casing.

3-With the car running I unbolted the fuel pump enough that I could wiggle it around. Obviously not a whole lot of movement but it did not effect the rattle at all, only backing off that bolt seemed to have any effect.

So current thought is either the cover is just in general warped. Or that crack is expanding when the bolt is tightened in it and causing some sort of warp that allows contact with the chain.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

The timing cover is thick enough and bolted to the flat surface of the engine enough thst it shouldn't warp or sit anything but flat but that's a strange one.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

The timing cover is thick enough and bolted to the flat surface of the engine enough thst it shouldn't warp or sit anything but flat but that's a strange one.

Oh I fully agree. Just that is the only thing I can think of that makes any sense. I even tried it with a roughly 1/4" washer just for science and no difference in behavior.

Only other things that come to mind is that maybe when torquing it down it pushes the fuel pump over just enough that it contacts the chain. But again, no marks or signs of that whatsoever on the pump. No metal shavings or specs or whatnot on or around the chain. And the cover shouldn't be flexing like that anyways like you said.

Also every bolt goes into the block and is protected by the cover except the two bottom WP bolts, that are nowhere near the chain. So it can't be contacting a bolt.
I'm honestly baffled

 

[69-]

Shouldn't there be oil all over the gear and chain?

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Shouldn't there be oil all over the gear and chain?

I questioned that a bit too, when I pre-soaked the new chain, between the time it took to get it out of the container and onto the motor the new oil already all dripped off and gears/chain looked like I never soaked it. Besides that the car had not been ran for a few days at that point, plenty of time for all the oil to leak down.

That said it is certainly possible something else is at play. However I cleaned the whole face of the block when replacing the chain, wiped all oil off.
There is a little tang in between the sprockets that I am assuming acts as an oil sling that has fresh oil on it, whereas it was clean before.
So I'm for now assuming that oil pressure isn't a problem.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Also, I am just noticing this now.
Both the Cloyes and FVP, not only do they share the same kit number but the parts lists for both are also the same exact part numbers, pictures all the same, it's practically the same listing with a different name slapped on.

 

[Mikes5thAve]

A lot of them fo that Ina down the list is similar also.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Plan of attack starts tomorrow, now that I am off work for a few days (I am off for this weekend, work 4am Monday morning, then off for 4 days)

I will start it for a minute to get gas in the carb. Run it without the fuel pump, see what happens just to rule it out although wiggling the pump made no difference to the sound or consistency of the sound when I last played with it.

Then I will be removing the new chain, checking every physical dimension with digital caliper and comparing to the old chain.
For now I am assuming it will be off, and assuming I got Chinese crap. If that is the case, try a new, different brand chain.

I have seen a lot of mixed reviews on chains, almost seems like a " you have to get lucky" situation with them.
Edelbrock chains get great reviews, but almost 200$ everywhere I look for the double roller (7803 is p/n If I remember right). Seems like overkill for a stock motor.

Anyways, on the chance that the chain specs match up right, clearly something else is wrong.
I will start from scratch. Chain and sprockets off, make sure they are all the way on, make sure eccentric is where it should be and bolt is re-tightened to spec.
I read a few mentions of the cam sprocket not being pushed on all the way and the eccentric doesn't push it back so it's moved forward a bit. I will check for this, clearance and spacing. I have a rubber hammer to tap tap it back on hand.

Then I will play with the fuel pump if necessary.
The fuel pump is not new, I replaced this back when I rebuilt the fuel system.
In my eyes, only the chain/sprockets were changed. It did not do this before the swap, at least not loudly. So why would it start now if the chain is the same type/dimensions.
The new parts should in theory be the most likely culprit, but will report back with findings.

And if absolutely all else fails, electric fuel pump and block off plate lol

Once this fiasco is dealt with, since the motor does not have any coolant in it I will remove the intake. Clean the heater passage out, potentially remove and pipe plug the unused computer connectors if I have matching plugs, clean it up a bit, and finally replaced the intake gaskets.

Then small rtv bead around the base carb gasket both sides when reassembling to rule it out.

Finally valve covers/gaskets.

I'm hoping for all to be done by the end of next month at the latest. Hopefully much sooner.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Doesn't make the sound with the pump completely out. Stick my finger in the hole with the car not running of course lol and it's very clear assuming the arm sits roughly in the middle of the hole, there is not much clearance with the chain where it is.
However again it never happened prior so why now, only my thing to change was the chain, and maybe that crack in the timing cover.

Measurements-
Old cam sprocket outside of teeth-0.54"
New cam sprocket outside of teeth-0.57"

Old Chain individual link size-0.28
Old chain width link nub to link nub-0.87

New chain individual link size 0.29
New chain width link nub nub-0.88

Crank sprockets measure exactly the same with a 0.01" difference between them

I don't think these differences would be enough to cause that pronounced a sound, BUT correct me if I'm wrong.

One thing did stick out to me, cam sprockets have a slightly different design. And I don't mean the weight holes.
I'm wondering if that top hat is a little tall on the new sprocket and it's pushing the chain out too far. Measurements read as being the same length though, so may just be a trick of the eyes.

I'm waiting for new gaskets to show up so I can't actually test anything right now. Just thought I'd post observations.
I am also currently pinching the fuel pump arm with c clamps, just to see if it can be tightened up rather than having to cut into it.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Also noticed this.
Looks like the cover has been getting chewed up a little. All along the side the chain would sit near. Hmmmm

 

[AMC Diplomat]

Doesn't make the sound with the pump completely out. Stick my finger in the hole with the car not running of course lol and it's very clear assuming the arm sits roughly in the middle of the hole, there is not much clearance with the chain where it is.

I am also currently pinching the fuel pump arm with c clamps, just to see if it can be tightened up rather than having to cut into it.

You could tape or pin a piece of sandpaper onto a very flat surface and slowly shave the pump arm a thousandths at time. It'll make a mess but it'll clean up ok

 

[AMC Diplomat]

Also noticed this.
Looks like the cover has been getting chewed up a little. All along the side the chain would sit near. Hmmmm

View attachment 53972

View attachment 53973

Mancini sells covers at reasonable prices: Timing Covers

 

[Mikes5thAve]

The cover should be more chewed up if it was rubbing and wouldn't have that discoloration.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

You could tape or pin a piece of sandpaper onto a very flat surface and slowly shave the pump arm a thousandths at time. It'll make a mess but it'll clean up ok

Good idea, I will try that once I see what sandpaper I have laying around.
As for the cover, mancini was great for the ignition kit but I got a surprise extra freight charge of around 120$ when I bought that kit. I'm not sure if I wanna do that again lol
Might just grab a Dorman off rockauto since at least I know I won't get surprised through them.

Edit- nevermind, with the ignition kit they only offered DHL, with the timing cover they offer FedEx so I'll give it a shot.

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

The cover should be more chewed up if it was rubbing and wouldn't have that discoloration.

So the chain (old or new) isn't at fault for that damage?

 

[AMC Diplomat]

Good idea, I will try that once I see what sandpaper I have laying around.
As for the cover, mancini was great for the ignition kit but I got a surprise extra freight charge of around 120$ when I bought that kit. I'm not sure if I wanna do that again lol
Might just grab a Dorman off rockauto since at least I know I won't get surprised through them.

Edit- nevermind, with the ignition kit they only offered DHL, with the timing cover they offer FedEx so I'll give it a shot.

Might want to call them first to see if they'll ding you again on that. I'm surprised it was that expensive

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Might want to call them first to see if they'll ding you again on that. I'm surprised it was that expensive

I went ahead and ordered it, I put a comment in to send me a quote BEFORE fully processing the order so we will see in a day or two hopefully

 

[5thtimesthecharm]

Mechanical fuel pumps should only move up and down correct? No horizontal play?
I only ask as I noticed the arm could move horizontally. Doesn't seem like a lot, maybe 1/8" but enough to be noticable

 

[Mikes5thAve]

If anything it should be minimal.