AMC Diplomat
Well-Known Member
1/8" in both directions is 1/4" of slop. That's a lot of slop.
My first post and it's a doozy
- Thread starter 5thtimesthecharm
- Start date
5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
No play whatsoever up and down, only horizontally left and right.
The new timing cover hasn't even shipped yet.
I am kind of tempted to take a skill saw and cut out the entire interior water pump portion of the old cover just to slap it on and get a view of what's going on inside, might be fun to see.
5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
Not so updated update-
So I asked for a shipping quote from mancini when I ordered the cover, they have not provided me with that quote, the cover hasn't shipped, no money has been taken, and no other correspondence.
That was over a week ago now.
I don't imagine that they are building the parts as they get orders for them, nor that it takes a week just to get a shipping quote. So I'm not sure what is going on. Being that this is labour day weekend for us I will give it a few days from now and if I hear nothing I'll have to contact them and go from there.
That said I've been doing a bunch of research and other than the recommendations here there don't seem to be many reports of the chain hitting the fuel pump. Doesn't seem like it's a very common issue at all. I feel as though gaskets could (should) have been made thicker, and maybe they were at one time.
Also Chrysler made an iron version V10 that was used in 90s Dakota's and was later adopted with aluminum heads and put in the first gen vipers??? That blew my mind when I read that, and started digging into it.
Drop a V10 in a 5th or a diplomat and dang, you could pass everything on the road except the gas station lol (and I may have access to a V10, but no interest in doing that swap)
So I asked for a shipping quote from mancini when I ordered the cover, they have not provided me with that quote, the cover hasn't shipped, no money has been taken, and no other correspondence.
That was over a week ago now.
I don't imagine that they are building the parts as they get orders for them, nor that it takes a week just to get a shipping quote. So I'm not sure what is going on. Being that this is labour day weekend for us I will give it a few days from now and if I hear nothing I'll have to contact them and go from there.
That said I've been doing a bunch of research and other than the recommendations here there don't seem to be many reports of the chain hitting the fuel pump. Doesn't seem like it's a very common issue at all. I feel as though gaskets could (should) have been made thicker, and maybe they were at one time.
Also Chrysler made an iron version V10 that was used in 90s Dakota's and was later adopted with aluminum heads and put in the first gen vipers??? That blew my mind when I read that, and started digging into it.
Drop a V10 in a 5th or a diplomat and dang, you could pass everything on the road except the gas station lol (and I may have access to a V10, but no interest in doing that swap)
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XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
I dont understand all the money being spent. Why not just got back to an $50 oem double row set and buy another $25 fuel pump and if the cover does need a little clearance spend 30 seconds with a die grinder?
I can see a lil wear area possibly, hard to tell in pics. I just dont get why a new cover would be needed when the old one has worked for how long?
I can see a lil wear area possibly, hard to tell in pics. I just dont get why a new cover would be needed when the old one has worked for how long?
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Well I got curious and went and dug through some parts. Some have that little raised area and it does not look like any of mine hit.
What I did find is with two aftermarket roller sets vs oem new the top sprocket/gear one one is .045 out and the other was .050. But I myself have had a problem from time to time and had to grind on something in the T cover. Most times when adding a chain tensioner its been either grind the cover or grind a bit on the edge of the nylon insert in the adjuster.
Have you looked for a pattern on your pump arm where it rides on the eccentric?
Some call it the oil slinger. I think it as more of a front seal protector to keep it from filling the seal with oil and leaking but you say you dont have one? Some get lucky some dont. But whatever is making the ringing noise does sound like one in wrong or like I had recent that balancer going bad and partially hitting the front cover on the outter front. Something has to have some fresh marks on it.
In reality I think your gonna find it and its gonna be something very simple and easily fixed. None of this is overly complicated.
Good luck.
What I did find is with two aftermarket roller sets vs oem new the top sprocket/gear one one is .045 out and the other was .050. But I myself have had a problem from time to time and had to grind on something in the T cover. Most times when adding a chain tensioner its been either grind the cover or grind a bit on the edge of the nylon insert in the adjuster.
Have you looked for a pattern on your pump arm where it rides on the eccentric?
Some call it the oil slinger. I think it as more of a front seal protector to keep it from filling the seal with oil and leaking but you say you dont have one? Some get lucky some dont. But whatever is making the ringing noise does sound like one in wrong or like I had recent that balancer going bad and partially hitting the front cover on the outter front. Something has to have some fresh marks on it.
In reality I think your gonna find it and its gonna be something very simple and easily fixed. None of this is overly complicated.
Good luck.
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Reading what you wrote in a prior post. You refer to the to the upper gear. Just trying to make sense of things wrote on the internet you know the part Aspen79 mentioned goes on the crankshaft before the cover and has a small step to it sorta and only fits flush one way.
I just seen the pattern on your pump eccentric and pump. Looks dry. This pump seems to be of put in in 82. Whole motor had 106k.
Look at this pattern vs yours. I dont know but your wear pattern looks wide and dry looking.
I step back and look at everything before id keep tossing out money.
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
One more thing to make it even more confusing. Really went to go look at wear patterns on pump arms and discovered this.
Look at the USA pump arms made for HD double roller chains vs the newer offshore.
Seems they took into account for something being a bit wider then oem.
Id bet my pump on the far right would have trouble with a HD double roller.
I know what id do.... go back to trouble free oem type parts.
Look at the USA pump arms made for HD double roller chains vs the newer offshore.
Seems they took into account for something being a bit wider then oem.
Id bet my pump on the far right would have trouble with a HD double roller.
I know what id do.... go back to trouble free oem type parts.
5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
Well first off holy spare parts! lol
That is alot, and of course confusing but ill try to clarify as much as i can.
The reasons im getting the new cover is to rule out possible cause, based on the condition of the cover i have a feeling this was opened up a few times before I did it.
The outer edge of the cover is fairly chopped up, you can see some of it in the picture along the edge of the cover. And just trying to avoid future issues with the crack the current one has as well. I dont mind spending the little extra to avoid leaks and having to go through all this again lol
As for the oil slinger yea i know what and where it is, or would have been rather, looks like a small plate with a lip roughly 3-4" across. Im assuming it was never equipped or was removed when the double roller was installed.
Maybe i should have worded it differently. I just meant that other than the chain and gears, the only other parts under the cover were the eccentric/eccentric bolt and the little eccentric cup that acts as the bolts washer(Which i realize seeing that quote i forgot to mention the "cup" washer)
From my understanding from other posts the oil slinger is not needed and is actually omitted in some years of the 318.
It also was not equipped with a tensioner assembly, only the oil drip plate that drips on the crank sprocket.
I do apologize for picture quality, google pixels are supposed to have great cameras, and they do, but the site lowers the resolution of pictures when posted.
That said i will try to get a better picture of the wear pattern on both the eccentric and the fuel pump.
As for the fuel pump, its only driven maybe a grand total of 250kms and was one of the first things i replaced when i got the car. It is a Carter M60519.
Prior to this aftermarket timing set, it never tapped, or at least not audibly. I did think recently that the chain had started tapping, turned out it was the lower alt mounting bolt, twas loose.
The HD pumps that you have, i cant find any information on them (assuming that the number around the body is a model#)
I looked into replacement pumps similar to what you have with the arm divot when this all started, they almost all range from 270-350$ Cad. And all the normal OEM style ones or similar design are solid arms like my current pump. Correct me if im wrong but i would likely need a fuel regulator if i went to any of those Hd pumps no?
And as for an OEM double roller kit, i had no luck finding any OEM units. I did that first before going aftermarket but settled with aftermarket when i had no luck.
But seriously thank you for going out of your way to take a look at all this stuff. If you have or can get links to a fuel pump/ or oem chain set by all means post them and ill post results.
Also if you want any pictures of anything specifically let me know and ill get them.
I agree that there is not much going on with this setup and should be fairly easy to diagnose, thats part of the reason for the frustration lol
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Melling box... really just a reboxed SA gear brand. Oem Replacement Double Roller
Small Block Mopar 273 318 340 360 V8 Engine Heavy Duty Timing Set Melling 3-160S | eBay
Fits Small Block Mopar Dodge Plymouth Engines From 1965 Through 1988. Small Block Chrysler Heavy Duty Timing Set.
www.ebay.com
5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
ok, ordered, now we wait.Melling box... really just a reboxed SA gear brand. Oem Replacement Double Roller
Small Block Mopar 273 318 340 360 V8 Engine Heavy Duty Timing Set Melling 3-160S | eBay
Fits Small Block Mopar Dodge Plymouth Engines From 1965 Through 1988. Small Block Chrysler Heavy Duty Timing Set.www.ebay.com
Serious question though and excuse the ignorance, how do i know that that is oem? Just that its melling or?
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Recall that dry eccentric and rough looking pump end... put a slinger in it. It does also keep oil from the front seal. Ive forgotten them on track cars and developed drips. The tight fit of the balancer keeps the slinger in place and goes down far enough to block the wash of oil on hard stops.
Text From Below
Here we go again. PLEASE look very closely at this picture! There's a reason the slinger is in perfect alignment with the fuel pump eccentric. It keeps oil on there to keep the fuel pump arm from grinding away. There are a lot of members on here that say they're not needed, the picture proves otherwise. The fuel pump arm has constant spring pressure pressing on the eccentric, that's steel to steel contact under pressure, there needs to be plenty of oil there to survive. Chrysler knew this and put the slinger on there. RUN THE SLINGER !!!
Text from Below
It's not facing the wrong way, if it's turned around the curvature will hit the chain. This is the way it goes. This is a 1969 340 engine. If you would mock up a crank, timing gear, slinger, timing cover and balancer you'd notice there's an inch gap between the slinger and the seal. Hardly close enough to keep oil off the seal, no, the slinger's job is to sling oil onto the eccentric and timing chain & gears.
Text From Below
Here we go again. PLEASE look very closely at this picture! There's a reason the slinger is in perfect alignment with the fuel pump eccentric. It keeps oil on there to keep the fuel pump arm from grinding away. There are a lot of members on here that say they're not needed, the picture proves otherwise. The fuel pump arm has constant spring pressure pressing on the eccentric, that's steel to steel contact under pressure, there needs to be plenty of oil there to survive. Chrysler knew this and put the slinger on there. RUN THE SLINGER !!!
Text from Below
It's not facing the wrong way, if it's turned around the curvature will hit the chain. This is the way it goes. This is a 1969 340 engine. If you would mock up a crank, timing gear, slinger, timing cover and balancer you'd notice there's an inch gap between the slinger and the seal. Hardly close enough to keep oil off the seal, no, the slinger's job is to sling oil onto the eccentric and timing chain & gears.
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XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Any oem fuel pump will work. If your eccentric is rough to the finger try some emery cloth to polish it or find a good used one or replace.
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
100 ways to explain but this was the most easy.
Because I said so DAMMIT... oh no I cant do that. Ive not Guru status... HA HA HA. And never will ! Yes thats a dig on the some dicks in the hobby.
1980 sealed power parts book..... If it were an 1985 book it would be the same info.
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5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
Honestly at this point, BECAUSE I SAID SO will work lol
So basically "stock replacement" is the requirement.
Oh thats very interesting though, definatly good for reference
Should i bother adding the tensioner while im in there as well?
So basically "stock replacement" is the requirement.
Oh thats very interesting though, definatly good for reference
Should i bother adding the tensioner while im in there as well?
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XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
On your deal Id not. Some chains can eat the nylon part that contacts the chain. Some last, some eat.
Some of the higher end double rollers have a bit better chain and are easier on them just due to the overall quality and finish.
Some of the higher end double rollers have a bit better chain and are easier on them just due to the overall quality and finish.
5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
AI AI Captain, understood.
Slinger ordered as well, just gotta hope the stuff shows up for the weekend (Working a lot after this weekend until the end of the month)
Also if this all gets slapped together and problem is solved then you've got guru status automatically haha
Still gotta figure out whats going on with the vacuum but ill cross that bridge after this one
XfbodyX
Well-Known Member
Please got some real vacuum line.
5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
May not have mentioned it but I changed vac lines weeks ago.
I used my red silicone from the first pictures i posted
I switched to higher psi rated silicone
I used the original rubber lines (cut the ends off 1/4 to account for cracking)
Borrowed new rubber line from my mechanic friend when i brought the car up to his house
I drove it using all of these with no difference, and same exact behaviour on vac gauge
I have spare copper nickel line, might just bend that with silicone connecting ends for the vacuum lines. Metal cant collapse, seems its the only way i can prove those lines arent the culprit lol
Also the brake booster line is the original line from when i got the car, i cut 1/4 off both ends, no leaks holds pressure. Pcv line is also new rubber.
The secondary line off the booster for the cruise servo is a new rubber line, local auto shop had the right size on hand. So the only lines are to the vac advance can and the choke thermostat have had all these changes.
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5thtimesthecharm
Well-Known Member
Also, stock image from eBay but is this the oil slinger on newer models, More of a dish as opposed to a plate?
Aspen500
Well-Known Member
That's on the outside of the timing cover. It's sort of a shield to keep dust and dirt away from the crank seal.
