Rough idle...

53ryder

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Using a 19" ratchet I got a 1 1/4" socket on the crankshaft pulley today. Moving the crankshaft in a clockwise direction it seemed like it took about a 3" swing to see any noticeable movement on the rotor. Moving the crankshaft pulley in the counter-clockwise direction it seemed to move the rotor about 1 1/2 inches before I saw movement in the rotor. There was a definite difference it which direction I moved the ratchet before seeimg movement of the rotor. Too much play in the timing chain or not necessarily? Thoughts?

I still need to change out the old plugs and have a new EGR valve if needed. A work-in-progress for sure!
 
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69-

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My thoughts: you have some slack in your timing chain. Of course that'll have some impact on valve-timing and ignition timing. BUT I would think that impact is quite limited, as the chain is always moved in just one direction.

Anyway. I would get through all the basics, as has been posted here before (vac lines, EGR, plugs, wires, rotor, cap....). Did you check on the vac lines? If old and somehow brittle -> replace them.
One more easy thing: fuel lines. They might seem ok (and not loosing fuel), but if they draw air, that'll definetely have a strong impact. Don't forget those hoses at the gas tank.

Then, I would do the timing chain. Even if the rough idle would be gone by any of the easy things, I still would put the timing chain on my list. Pretty much on top of it.
 

AJ/FormS

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That chain is SHOT; 3inches one way AND 1.5 the other, if that's what you mean, is a wonder it runs at all.
But even if the total is only 3, that is still a wonder.
However, your test is IMO invalid as to testing chain slack, because it includes too many variables. Your method allows the slack in the oil-pump drive to befuddle the measurement, as well as any shaft endplay, as it rises and falls with each the reversal of the crank.

The proper way to do it, has nothing whatever to do with the rotor. Just rotate the crank in a CW direction until it hits resistance. Now, reverse directions, and slowly slowly back it up until you again meet the slightest resistance; Then repeat the test several times until you get confident about feeling the threshold of resistance. Now estimate the number of degrees between resistances.

Here's what's happening;
the valve springs are forcing the cam into a sort of stationary position, thru the pushrods and lifters and specifically when a lobe , any lobe, meets a lifter and trys to lift it. Once there, and you stop, then it doesn't want to move anymore; on account of the Scientific Law that states, that:
an object at rest tends to stay at rest.
But the drag of the piston rings, in comparison, is waaaay less. So with a lil practice, you can easily find this position, after all; there are 16 lobes so you're bound to find one right quick.
What you want to see is ZERO "lash". but I think I have seen an acceptable number is 3 degrees. Engines have been running for decades with more than 3*, so it's not a panic. But if you get to more than 5* it is starting to affect your timings, and if you have a nylon coated camgear, you are starting to push your luck. If you have a double roller, it will run another 50,000 miles so don't sweat it. If I had 5* slack, I would replace the timing set because, 5* retards BOTH your cam timing AND your ignition timing. The latter you can compensate for, but that 5* has moved your power-peak up about 200rpm, and taken about half that off the bottom, making it sluggish twice; once for the cam-retard, and again for the ignition retard.
But it get worse; the retarded cam has dropped your cylinder pressure, making your bottom end weaker; and the retarded ignition timing, means that the Peak Power is also reduced. So now, the engine is making less pressure on the compression stroke and then lighting it off later ,as the piston is running away from whatever pressure the expanding gasses can muster.It has lost low-rpm power, and lost high-rpm power and power every where in between; not to mention the lousy fuel-economy she-s getting.
IMO, 5* is totally unacceptable.
 
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jasperjacko

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You need to count degrees of timing on the balancer, not inches of travel at the end of a 19" ratchet.
 

Mikes5thAve

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The rotor way of checking it is the best way. Crank turns chain, chain turns distributor just like engine running. Use the timing marks to see how much degrees it moves.
That's the first time I've ever seen anyone say to check it by resistance. Too many variables there not to mention the pain it can be to hold a tool ton the crank bolt and apply consistent pressure to begin with.
 

Sub03

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3" of slack on a 19" radius (your ratchet) equals about nine degrees, 1.5" slack is obviously 4.5 degrees.
But I guess this is a very uncertain way of measuring the slack, hard to see when the rotor starts turning while handling the ratchet.
Do as suggested above, measure on the timing marks. Maybe someone could keep an eye (or a hand) on the rotor when you're turning the crank.

I don't understand the difference in CW vs CCW numbers. Should the slack be the same in either direction?

I agree with 69- here. I would check the simple (and cheap) suspects first, beginning with vacuum lines and a check for leaking carb base/intake.
 

Mikes5thAve

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But I guess this is a very uncertain way of measuring the slack, hard to see when the rotor starts turning while handling the ratchet.
Do as suggested above, measure on the timing marks. Maybe someone could keep an eye (or a hand) on the rotor when you're turning the crank.
That's what you do.. One person turns the other person watches.

Yes, check or do the simple stuff first because it'll need it regardless plus its not that hard or expensive to do.
 

LSM360

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That's what you do.. One person turns the other person watches.

Yes, check or do the simple stuff first because it'll need it regardless plus its not that hard or expensive to do.
Correct and if I were a betting man I'd bet it is one of the simpler things and not the chain.
 

jasperjacko

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My money is on either the egr, or the pickup coil in the distributor. The lean burn has 2, the run and I think the start. My guess is the run has went bad.
 

Aspen500

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If the run pickup went bad, the engine wouldn't run. Then again, it could be GOING bad and cause erratic igntion timing. Usually though they just plain die and they die very seldom, in Mopar's. Ford and GM, different story.

If your timing chain is original, and I realize you have no way of knowing that, it's a good idea to change it regardless. If it is original, it has the nylon cam gear and those tend to seem fine and then, the engine dies suddenly and cranks with little to no compression. Most times it does this at the worst possible time, like half way across a busy intersection or waaaaaaaaaay out in the boonies. Don't ask me how I know this, LOL!
 

jasperjacko

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If the run pickup went bad, the engine wouldn't run. Then again, it could be GOING bad and cause erratic igntion timing. Usually though they just plain die and they die very seldom, in Mopar's. Ford and GM, different story.

If your timing chain is original, and I realize you have no way of knowing that, it's a good idea to change it regardless. If it is original, it has the nylon cam gear and those tend to seem fine and then, the engine dies suddenly and cranks with little to no compression. Most times it does this at the worst possible time, like half way across a busy intersection or waaaaaaaaaay out in the boonies. Don't ask me how I know this, LOL!
There is two pickups in a lean burn distributor. It will run off of one but poorly.
 

Aspen500

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I must have been thinking of the '81 D150 I had. It had 2 pickup coils but wasn't lean burn. Had a relay on the firewall that switched pickups. One was for start, the other for run. In run, the start pickup was disconnected and vice-versa.
 

53ryder

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Been busy doing other chores. My engine seems to run fine on fast idle, but when out of fast idle it really shakes. Did get Champion spark plugs and egr valve yesterday. Will change out plugs and valve and look at distributor parts as well. And yeah, the timing chain most likely needs replacing anyways. It on the 'to do' list but near the bottom.

Glenn
 

volare 1977

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Sounds like a vacuum leak to me. As mentioned check over the easy stuff first.
 
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53ryder

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New plugs in and new egr valve in this morning. Same old shakes. Darn. Will give hoses serious look-see next.


Glenn
 

BudW

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When you remove the EGR valve - check both passageways (underneath the valve) for stoppage (carbon deposits). If one side (or both) are stopped up, a new EGR valve will not fix anything. It will also NOT be the cause of a rough idle.
If your passageways are stopped up, it also tells me your valve seals are probably shot.

How did the old plugs look (rusty, oil caked, melted, smelt like gas, etc.)?
BudW
 

53ryder

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Saved the old plugs. Took pictures. I can lighten these pictures up a bit and reload if it will help. Plugs 1 & 8 had some crud between the tip and the electrode when I pulled them first out.

I did see some crud down below in the egr 'passageways'.. Not sure how much though having never fiddled with and egr valve before.

fullsizeoutput_32cb.jpeg


fullsizeoutput_32ca.jpeg
 
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